Your MAX-11A1/15 is ready!

[M10]

I covered your exact example in literally my second sentence: "You'd have to catch one of the locking lugs just right." I've never heard of it happening but could imagine it. Interesting to know that it is actually possible. 1 out of 100,000 rounds is pretty much a fluke though.

I'm far more familiar with the Stoner pattern weapons than Ingrams. I will have to agree to disagree. I've had a few rounds over the years that I was shocked did NOT explode.

I have also seen someone stack TEN rounds in a Colt AR-15 Sp-1 barrel, prior to splitting it like a wicker lantern on the 11th. (He was manually cycling rounds after a squib, thinking it was an ejection issue.) This barrel was on display in a gun store in Florida for almost 20 years. The dealer kept to show people how dangerous not knowing what you are doing can be. The "operator" had two fingers nearly severed when the barrel finally popped.

Regardless, even a faint chance is concerning over 10s of 1000s of rds.

 

[LawBob]

I'm far more familiar with the Stoner pattern weapons than Ingrams. I will have to agree to disagree. I've had a few rounds over the years that I was shocked did NOT explode.

I have also seen someone stack TEN rounds in a Colt AR-15 Sp-1 barrel, prior to splitting it like a wicker lantern on the 11th. (He was manually cycling rounds after a squib, thinking it was an ejection issue.) This barrel was on display in a gun store in Florida for almost 20 years. The dealer kept to show people how dangerous not knowing what you are doing can be. The "operator" had two fingers nearly severed when the barrel finally popped.

Regardless, even a faint chance is concerning over 10s of 1000s of rds.

My friend put 6-7 colibri in a Winchester 22 pump

We tried everything to clear it. Ended up taking apart and using map gas to dissolve the lead

 

[M10]

My friend put 6-7 colibri in a Winchester 22 pump

We tried everything to clear it. Ended up taking apart and using map gas to dissolve the lead

I imagine that was a mess! Simply cleaning the lead from my .22 lr pistol with 3" barrel can take an hour or more. I have quit shooting uncoated lead from it.

 

[smdub]

A fellow club member sent me video of his 11A1-15. W/o a round or mag inserted, just dropping the empty bolt, it will bounce CLEAR open. An AR does NOT do that (due to the weights in the buffer). He is worried about OOB. Now that I see it, I'm a bit worried too. A round will cause some drag but maybe not enough? This very likely gives explanation to the OOBs a few have experienced here. If a round chambers easily (causing little drag) it could fire and the bounce unlocks the bolt before the pressure is down to a safe level. Here is a frame grab taken from his video (cropped to remove his serial #.) This is the max distance of the first bounce. The second bounce also unlocks but doesn't fully open. Looks like the third bounce doesn't come back enough to unlock.

I'm going to see if mine does the same. Then I guess the next thing to do is to try it with a snap cap/dummy round (w/ no powder or primer) being stripped from a mag.

Edit: My new, never fired 11A1/15 also bounces open. Not as much in frame grab below but I can't hold it firmly and take video at the same time. Just thinking out loud: It doesn't appear there is any easy way to put dead blow weights in the IRM carrier as the spring is in the back (tubular weights?). Is there a way to convert the 11A1 version to an AR recoil mechanism? I'm off to look to see if I have any 5.56 snap caps...

 

[m11stuff@hotmail.com]

Dropping the bolt on an empty chamber is not the same as having the pressure from rounds in the magazine pushing up and causing drag as well as the resistance of stripping a round from the magazine, chambering the round and the force required to have the extractor hook over the rim.

The bolt does not have a chance to bounce back when firing a round versus dropping on an empty chamber. The time it takes for the primer to ignite and flash to the powder and expand the case is instantaneous and puts pressure on the bolt locking lugs.

I will do some high speed camera analysis of dropping the bolt on an empty chamber versus on a dummy round from a magazine this week.

 

[M10]

https://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/912-bolt-carrier-bounce-causes-and-solutions/

https://youtu.be/y2GeugjmeF0 (weightless)

https://youtu.be/575Q0O41u5s (Weighted, various)

I know early M-16 rifles had some "bolt bounce" issues. These were somewhat resolved with the creation of the weighted buffer.

Colt made also an Open Bolt LMG version of the M-16, which used a hydraulic buffer. The above article touches on some of this info.

Edit: added video link (not my video) of weightless buffer M4 in slow motion.

 

[TheStig]

Got a chance to take this out the range, I'm boggled by how light it and the recoil is.

 

[smdub]

Dropping the bolt on an empty chamber is not the same as having the pressure from rounds in the magazine pushing up and causing drag as well as the resistance of stripping a round from the magazine, chambering the round and the force required to have the extractor hook over the rim.

The bolt does not have a chance to bounce back when firing a round versus dropping on an empty chamber. The time it takes for the primer to ignite and flash to the powder and expand the case is instantaneous and puts pressure on the bolt locking lugs.

I will do some high speed camera analysis of dropping the bolt on an empty chamber versus on a dummy round from a magazine this week.

I understand the drag of chambering a round will reduce the energy and thus the bounce. I allude to that in my post. I can't find my snap caps so I'm tearing down a round today to make up a dummy. Will also take high speed video.

You can't rely on the time it takes to ignite the primer for safety. A light strike and/or a slow primer will totally change the timing. If the bolt has any chance of unlocking with a live round, that's a safety issue.

 

[m11stuff@hotmail.com]

I shot a bunch of high speed video this morning of the MAX-11/15 beta unit that I have over 20,000 rounds through, a MAX-11A1/15 and a M4 carbine. They all have bolt bounce to a certain extent. I tried empty chamber, empty magazine, loaded magazine with a dummy round. Least bounce was with the M4. For the MAX-11/15 and MAX-11A1/15, bolt bounce was the same in each test condition.

The MAX-11A1/15, MAX-11/15 and MAX-10/15 Beta unit have been shot with various types of factory ammo, various types of magazines and lots of drum dumps. I never had an out of battery detonation with any of them. One of the other MAX-11/15 beta testers had an out of battery after having a squib and then multiple rounds behind it before it blew. This was way after having tens of thousands of rounds through it during official Beta testing. The MAX-11A1/15 beta unit has had well over 5,000 rounds through it without issue.

We test fire every rifle caliber upper before shipping and have never had an out of battery detonation. Combined, we have sold close to 900 rifle caliber uppers in about 4 years.

I believe the main purpose of the AR sliding weight buffer system is to minimize bolt bounce due to how it affects timing of the hammer hitting the firing pin. If the hammer falls while the bolt has bounced back and is not seated, it will not fire. With an open bolt system, there is not a hammer timing issue. With an open bolt system, the bolt moves forward, it rotates and locks before the firing pin protrudes through the bolt face and strikes the primer. The bolt can actually bounce back a very small amount and still be locked.

I will be putting together a 7.62x39 conversion to test in the coming weeks to see if there is a specific reason that it may be more prone to out of battery detonations. From talking to knowledgeable people in the industry, it points to primer set back causing delayed ignition. We will see...

 

[LawBob]

A fellow club member sent me video of his 11A1-15. W/o a round or mag inserted, just dropping the empty bolt, it will bounce CLEAR open. An AR does NOT do that (due to the weights in the buffer). He is worried about OOB. Now that I see it, I'm a bit worried too. A round will cause some drag but maybe not enough? This very likely gives explanation to the OOBs a few have experienced here. If a round chambers easily (causing little drag) it could fire and the bounce unlocks the bolt before the pressure is down to a safe level. Here is a frame grab taken from his video (cropped to remove his serial #.) This is the max distance of the first bounce. The second bounce also unlocks but doesn't fully open. Looks like the third bounce doesn't come back enough to unlock.

I'm going to see if mine does the same. Then I guess the next thing to do is to try it with a snap cap/dummy round (w/ no powder or primer) being stripped from a mag.

Edit: My new, never fired 11A1/15 also bounces open. Not as much in frame grab below but I can't hold it firmly and take video at the same time. Just thinking out loud: It doesn't appear there is any easy way to put dead blow weights in the IRM carrier as the spring is in the back (tubular weights?). Is there a way to convert the 11A1 version to an AR recoil mechanism? I'm off to look to see if I have any 5.56 snap caps...

View attachment 37368

As lage said, and you can take the bolt out and see how this works, unless the bolt rotated and locks, the firing pin won’t be visible to cause the OOB.

It stays hidden until the bolt rotates which “pulls” the bolt closer to the carrier, as it gets closer the firing pin protrudes the bolt hole. Of it bounces before lock up the firing pin never protrudes.

 

[smdub]

As lage said, and you can take the bolt out and see how this works, unless the bolt rotated and locks, the firing pin won’t be visible to cause the OOB.

It stays hidden until the bolt rotates which “pulls” the bolt closer to the carrier, as it gets closer the firing pin protrudes the bolt hole. Of it bounces before lock up the firing pin never protrudes.

Thats not what we are talking about. As the bolt strips a round from the mag and pushes it into the chamber, the bolt bottoms out in the barrel extension. The momentum of the carrier keeps it going forward and the cam slot/pin in the top causes it to rotate the bolt (into battery behind the lugs.) After it fully rotates, the slot is straight and the carrier can continue forward. (FWIW, the carrier is pushing into the bolt. The bolt never "pulls" the carrier.) This will expose the firing pin striking the primer. The round should now start to ignite in a typical situation. The carrier should then hit the barrel extension and start to bounce. If the round has gone off, the bolt trust should hold it in place enough the carrier bounce can't pull the bolt out of battery. What we are postulating is that if the primer has delayed ignition due to a slow primer (as I've already said a light primer strike which Lage has said could be due do setback primers, possibly more common on 7.62x39) the carrier bounce could very well have pulled the bolt out of battery by the time the pressure is really building and you have an OOB explosion.

 

[Gaujo]

Typical Lage amazing service.

 

[smdub]

OK, I pulled down a M855 round to use as a dummy. Magpul mag. One round. My gopro batt was dead so I used my phone. You can see the round starting to load and the bounce. The bolt is fully unlocked (can tell by the extractor). The carrier only needs to move back ~2.5mm before the bolt starts to unlock. We are WELL past that point.
My bolt doesn't bounce open NEARLY as far as Jeff's. His is literally 2x worse than mine. I'll ask him if he is coming to our event this Sunday and I'll bring my dummy round to video his gun.

 

[m11stuff@hotmail.com]

If you are concerned about firing it, you can send it back and we will test fire it some more or you can return it for a refund.

 

[9mmsubgun-m11]

Lage customer service as always second to none and I hope you sell 900 more Richard. Mine has run like a Submariner since day one-smooth as silk.

 

[M10]

Got a chance to take this out the range, I'm boggled by how light it and the recoil is.

Yeah, the 1st thing my buddy said after firing: "Dude! This is only like a pound heavier than my Rock River! And it doesn't kick!"

To which I replied, "Your semi Rock River..."

 

[SecondAmend]

Lage customer service as always second to none ... Mine has run like a Submariner since day one-smooth as silk.

The Submariner that I used to have ran rather poorly. From what I read, it needed a $1000 tune up, so I sold it. On the other hand (or would it be wrist?), my Datejust works great.

MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.

 

[Roaster72]

Lage customer service as always second to none and I hope you sell 900 more Richard. Mine has run like a Submariner since day one-smooth as silk.

I have extensively tested my upper with every round of shitty 223 or 556 ammo I can find This has included Tula, Wolf (bought fifteen years ago for 99/500), ammo from that jug of assorted ammo every shooter has, and finally the behind the truck seat loose ammo. Out of well over 1000 rounds of this garbage ammo I have experienced One malfunction. An old Adventure Line 20 round magazine got excited and let a round loose early and it jammed above the bolt.

This has been my complete experience with my upper. Thank you Richard for making this experiment possible.

 

[m11stuff@hotmail.com]

I have extensively tested my upper with every round of shitty 223 or 556 ammo I can find This has included Tula, Wolf (bought fifteen years ago for 99/500), ammo from that jug of assorted ammo every shooter has, and finally the behind the truck seat loose ammo. Out of well over 1000 rounds of this garbage ammo I have experienced One malfunction. An old Adventure Line 20 round magazine got excited and let a round loose early and it jammed above the bolt.

This has been my complete experience with my upper. Thank you Richard for making this experiment possible.

You are welcome and thank YOU for the extra testing!

 

[9mmsubgun-m11]

The Submariner that I used to have ran rather poorly. From what I read, it needed a $1000 tune up, so I sold it. On the other hand (or would it be wrist?), my Datejust works great.

MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.

Both my 1984 and 2019 Subs lose a little time but no big deal.Your Datejust will need a service at some point.My neck of the woods the Authorized Dealer charges around $600.00