Price Check on DIAS's

[hkg3k]

Not sure if you intended to arouse feelings of jealousy with a picture of you five sears, but in case you are looking for a golden star, here are five to match your sears:

Thanks anyway for the stars; but no, I post the pic only to give credibility to my words. I picked up all those sears in the past 3 years; paid no more than $13k for any single one and spent no "new" money on them.......i.e. I sold something to raise the money for each buy. I knew what I wanted, knew the market, and jumped when the opportunities presented themselves.

What I didn't do is complain on some internet board how all the RDIAS buyers and sellers are a**holes for asking/paying top dollar in the same time frame.......and lose out on what I wanted.

I've been in this long enough to see your complaint play itself out many times. Same old song the complainers sang when M11/9s jumped from $400 to $600, M16s $1600 to $2000, HK sears from $500 to $800 and on and on.

There's even one or two guns out there that in hind sight I should've never let get away from me......MG42 when I could've picked up a virtually new C&R gun for $4k and a Stoner 63a when Reed Knight was selling them new for $10k.

Yep, wish I made my decisions differently so those 2 were in my gun room today.......but I don't feel at all bitter toward those fortunate enough to own an MG42 or Stoner 63a. I don't even think they're a**holes

 

[AZ Doug]

If RDIAS' had been produced in the same numbers as M11/9's, yes they would be selling for considerably less today.......but then so would M16's of most flavors. I won't rehash all the advantages a RDIAS enjoys, but suffice it to say there seems to be a widespread "awakening" of the market to those advantages.......just like HK sears seemingly doubled in price overnight around 10 years ago. ...

I also believe the price is obviously linked to supply and demand, but that demand has increased due to the "awakening" you wrote about. I too am a late sleeper. I wish I had awakened earlier.

In the 70s and early 80s we thought the DIAS was a joke owned by people wanting a vacation at club fed and at that time we may have been right. I guess I am a little slow, ok very slow, and didn't fully understand the ramifications of May 19, 1986 for many years after that date.

It has just been in the last couple of years that a RDIAS has interested me. (I told you I am slow) I do own two RRs, but the versatility of a RDIAS, for my needs, ok they are really wants not needs, beats them any day. Even so, I am not willing, at this time, to sell either of my RRs to buy a RDIAS.

By the way, I am envious. There is always someone out there with more toys than you. In my case there are a lot of people, not just someone.

 

[amphibian]

the HK sear and hosts have equaled and are surpassing the options for the M16.

I don't think so.

HK's still lag far behind the AR/M16 family in at least two areas:
1. Parts availability. Just walk into almost any gun store and tell me what parts are more prevalent. 99% of the time you will find more AR/M16 parts than HK.

2. 22LR conversions. FA HK conversions do exist like the HK G3. But even that one is low capacity. Yes, I know about the AM180 drum adapter for it but that is also pretty finicky.
22LR conversions for the other HK variants is pretty rare and mags would be an issue.
Compare that to the options for the M16 family, you have the AM180 upper, plenty of Atchisson variations and the belt fed Lakeside LM7/Razorback which now runs very well with the new bolt design Eric made at least a year or so ago.
In today's economy, more people are shooting 22 than ever. I know I do. A lot of my shooting buddies with MG's are doing the same.

Regarding using 308 with a DIAS, MGI did just show off their 308 setup which uses AR length uppers at Shot Show in January:

http://www.defensereview.com/mgi-hydra-modular-7-62mm-nato308-win-tactical-ar-ar-15-riflecarbinesbr-short-barreled-rifle-conversion-kit-prototype-with-modular-lower-receiver-7-62mm-magwell-and-mag-photos-and-video/
I'm not saying it is going to work out just citing an example.

For a compact subgun, there are 22LR M16 subguns and you don't need the buffer tube. Eric at Lakeside also has a 22LR belt fed kit you can get for this setup... yes full auto belt fed 22LR machine pistol basically.
You can see it at the top part of the picture below:

For a closed bolt 9mm subgun, HKMP5 is the king IMHO. Extremely smooth like you said. This is the only HK variant I have now. I have no interest in full auto 308 and all the other calibers I am interested in I can do with the AR/M16 RR or DIAS.

For that matter, you can readily do so much more easily with AR platform. With the HK platform, it is delayed roller blowback. With the AR platform, you have blowback for the smaller calibers, gas operated and a bunch of piston variations popping up all the time. Those lines are getting blurred now as some are going to gas operation in the smaller calibers.
I have one of RMW's gas operated 45 ACP uppers and I shot it side by side my 9mm MP5 and I'm telling you it was smoother than the MP5.
You have to try it to believe it.

Think about all the other variants on the M16 family, you now have 7.62x25 Tok for cheap shooting also. 6.5, 6.8 and now the popular 300 Blackout which is just a barrel change than anyone can do with a barrel wrench and vise in their garage.

 

[JTinIN]

I don't think so.

Parts availability is a minor issue, as locally no source of full auto parts except KCR (which also has HK parts), the AR parts are over priced and thus have to mail order either way, besides being a parts person I tend to have what ever is needed on hand. Now if we are worried about keeping something running after the fall of the infrastructure, then no problem I am already gone, as I am diabetic ;-).

I actually like shooting 308 and started with the HK91 as the first host with the sear. But the MGI 308 host is an interesting option and probably their product line is the reason for a few dollars in each DIAS.

Will take your word on the 22LR, as after 20 years I have really lost interest or hope in full auto M16 22LR due to the primary options historically being a real pain to keep running and lack of support from the OEM. Have friends with major issues on the mag units from JAC and lets say the customer service was limited ;-). The 22LR belt fed upper maybe working now (but it was to have been working in the old days also), but was a long road and the initial guys got burned with the price drop when they sold off their non working uppers (it happens). The customer service may have been friendly, but in the old days the firing pins broke and the systems would not feed, but nothing could be done. A little like working with Vector, they are friendly but everything is a "feature" and you have to live with it.

The RMW gas operated 45 ACP upper is an interesting option, does that require a DIAS or will it work with a RR?

A limited number of friends do HK barrel changes in their garage with out needing the barrel wrench ;-).

Thanks for the discussion, the best option is still have both, the HK for the MM23eK, HK53, MP5 family and the M16 for the medium size 223s and 22LR if I ever find one that works ok.

Regards
John

P.S. Figures the HK Monolog played better on HKPro that here on the M16 discussion board ;-)

 

[hkg3k]

There is always someone out there with more toys than you.

Isn't that the truth......and certainly applies to toys outside the NFA world as well.

I've been bummed several times in this game for letting a particular piece get outside the price envelope I wanted to be in. I don't/didn't blame anyone but myself and either figured out a way to deal with the shift or learned to live without.

 

[JTinIN]

Isn't that the truth......and certainly applies to toys outside the NFA world as well.

I've been bummed several times in this game for letting a particular piece get outside the price envelope I wanted to be in. I don't/didn't blame anyone but myself and either figured out a way to deal with the shift or learned to live without.

One of the guys that help me with M16s and HKs years ago, always said you can't own everything, so that what's friends are for. I have had to good luck to shoot a wide range of older guns and new post samples that way. Plus noted when the son first got interested in NFA during collage, the guys brought out all the good stuff that had never seen the light of days in years, for the son to shoot.

With a board name of HKG3K (which is an interesting HK and possible nearly ideal for just one rifle), hope you kept at least one HK sear around ;-). Was wondering if you don't mind my asking, why trade off toys for five DIAS instead of say stopping at three (i.e. two to shoot and one as a backup ... or maybe you have large group of shooters ;-) and keeping one or two other toys? From a investment sense, at this time (assuming nothing goes real bad) looks like you most likely made a good call. Would be interesting knowing what type of toys were traded off, if you don't mind discussing.

Myself always missed not getting the Group BAR for $4K when Ken Lamont tried to talk me into it for a first NFA item (was waiting for a real GI BAR that never came along at the correct time), until I fired my first Bren ..... The other one was passing on the Vickers, but 303 ammo was too costly ... shortly there after the 7.61x54R conversion came out.

Have a Good Day and too many questions already.

Regards
John

 

[AZ Doug]

Isn't that the truth......and certainly applies to toys outside the NFA world as well.

I've been bummed several times in this game for letting a particular piece get outside the price envelope I wanted to be in. I don't/didn't blame anyone but myself and either figured out a way to deal with the shift or learned to live without.

I have never blamed anyone either. Live and learn. Toys are wants, not needs, so I too have either figured out a way to "deal with the shift" or done without.

...P.S. Figures the HK Monolog played better on HKPro that here on the M16 discussion board ;-)

Yeah, I can understand it would play better over there. The subject of HKs is something you and I are just going to have a difference of opinion about. Good news for you HK lovers is, I am not in the market for one, so the demand is one less :thinking Oh, I forgot, I couldn't afford one anyway, so I guess I was never part of that demand calculation anyway.

 

[JTinIN]

.....
Yeah, I can understand it would play better over there. The subject of HKs is something you and I are just going to have a difference of opinion about. Good news for you HK lovers is, I am not in the market for one, so the demand is one less :thinking Oh, I forgot, I couldn't afford one anyway, so I guess I was never part of that demand calculation anyway.

A "few" years ago, when the HK Sears first started going up in price (i.e. $400 to $450 at LMO) they were not too bad of cost, in particular since only have $385 in the HK91. Myself like the HKs due to the existence of the sear allowing options on various host guns, not present with anything else other than the DIAS (thus the reason the DIAS is gotten to where it is). The HKs are still and always have been stamp sheet metal firearms that were made to be low cost (for the day) to made but since the loss of supply, are no longer low in price. If the toy fund allowed, would be shooting mostly early WWII firearms with the addition of M240 (which the friends post sample works nicely).

 

[USSarizona]

Thanks anyway for the stars; but no, I post the pic only to give credibility to my words. I picked up all those sears in the past 3 years; paid no more than $13k for any single one and spent no "new" money on them.......i.e. I sold something to raise the money for each buy. I knew what I wanted, knew the market, and jumped when the opportunities presented themselves.

What I didn't do is complain on some internet board how all the RDIAS buyers and sellers are a**holes for asking/paying top dollar in the same time frame.......and lose out on what I wanted.

I've been in this long enough to see your complaint play itself out many times. Same old song the complainers sang when M11/9s jumped from $400 to $600, M16s $1600 to $2000, HK sears from $500 to $800 and on and on.

There's even one or two guns out there that in hind sight I should've never let get away from me......MG42 when I could've picked up a virtually new C&R gun for $4k and a Stoner 63a when Reed Knight was selling them new for $10k.

Yep, wish I made my decisions differently so those 2 were in my gun room today.......but I don't feel at all bitter toward those fortunate enough to own an MG42 or Stoner 63a. I don't even think they're a**holes

Sound advice. I retract my stars, all sarcasm aside. You make legitimate points. I still reserve the right to express my frustrations with those who unnecessarily drive inflation of any kind, however.

 

[hkg3k]

With a board name of HKG3K (which is an interesting HK and possible nearly ideal for just one rifle), hope you kept at least one HK sear around ;-). Was wondering if you don't mind my asking, why trade off toys for five DIAS instead of say stopping at three (i.e. two to shoot and one as a backup ... or maybe you have large group of shooters ;-) and keeping one or two other toys? From a investment sense, at this time (assuming nothing goes real bad) looks like you most likely made a good call. Would be interesting knowing what type of toys were traded off, if you don't mind discussing.

Yes, I have HK sears (Fleming or Qualified only for me) and at the risk of offending someone who might be "sear poor" compared to what I have......

M16 and HK variants is what I've been taking (mostly) to range in past years, so over the past 3 years I traded M16 RRs into RDIAS' and added 3 (more) HK sears to my personal mix. I sold off guns the market values more than I did at a time when sears had momentarily plateaued in price.

I don't think it can be said enough that sears are going to continue to climb in price in the future. A $18k RDIAS (or $13k HK sear) is still more versatile and probably cheaper than any 3 similar quality "single trick ponies" out there. The market sees this and there's only so many sears to go around. Just my opinion.

Sound advice. I retract my stars, all sarcasm aside. You make legitimate points. I still reserve the right to express my frustrations with those who unnecessarily drive inflation of any kind, however.

Understand......experienced plenty of the same frustration myself. Try to turn your "lemons" into "lemonade." If you want an M16 platform, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a good RR. Factory Colts are the best IMO, but there's some nice conversion guns out there as well.

 

[JTinIN]

Yes, I have HK sears (Fleming or Qualified only for me) and at the risk of offending someone who might be "sear poor" compared to what I have......

M16 and HK variants is what I've been taking (mostly) to range in past years, so over the past 3 years I traded M16 RRs into RDIAS' and added 3 (more) HK sears to my personal mix. I sold off guns the market values more than I did at a time when sears had momentarily plateaued in price.

I don't think it can be said enough that sears are going to continue to climb in price in the future. A $18k RDIAS (or $13k HK sear) is still more versatile and probably cheaper than any 3 similar quality "single trick ponies" out there. The market sees this and there's only so many sears to go around. Just my opinion.

Well there were surprise of surprise five HK sears, me thinks you might have five children and/or grand children ;-).

Take care and as long as the rules stay the same don't disagree on the sears. Myself got into a nearly new Colt M16A1 a "few" years ago for several thousand and never have found a DIAS sitting around to be picked up when I was thinking about it (they do move fast, even compared to the HK sears).

Photo of the first sear in as received condition (the markings are hard to read on a good day):

 

[MarkV]

There's a good book to read...

Extraordinary Popular Delusions & the Madness of Crowds circa 1841.

Whether it's tulips, Beanie Babies, tech stocks, or housing; bottom line is everything is worth not only what you are willing to pay for it but what the other joker is willing to pay. Just hope your not the last guy that bought in.

 

[JTinIN]

Per JTinIN's suggestion:

What's up with this shit?: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/nf...gi?read=147439 A large segment of the NFA market seems to be inflated somewhat arbitrarily lately.

20k for a used sear (I get it's steel) and a host? It's not like it comes with a Shrike. Maybe this is the same guy setting the gas prices too. For Christ's sake, even Bernanke hasn't popped interest rates yet.

So far has been an interesting thread with a lot on varied ideas and view point. Thanks starting the new thread and look forward to a continuing input of ideas.

Regards
John

 

[USSarizona]

So far has been an interesting thread with a lot on varied ideas and view point. Thanks starting the new thread and look forward to a continuing input of ideas.

Regards
John

Very welcome. While it was my frustration that begot this thread, it was everyone's contributions that made it valuable. Thanks to all for the thoughtful insight. There are many lessons to be learned here with far reaching implications, which extend well beyond the NFA realm.

 

[rhouston8]

I think what many of us lament is the fact that full auto shooting is rapidly becoming "a rich man's game" as so clearly stated by a post I read on another board. I agree 100%. I understand the frustration at the accelerating prices, the apparent price gouging, the healthy capitalist aspect, basic supply & demand, and the pain of lost opportunities of yore. I get it all. I understand it. I live on both sides of that argument as a collector/shooter since '99 and still actively buying new ones (and shooting them plenty).

On a higher level...and as a NFA collector/shooter... It bothers me to see our sport really pricing out so many regular gun loving Americans. That kid you let shoot your M16 in the past...you know, your buddy's kid ...that shit eating ear to ear grin he had plastered across his face immed. after shooting FA for the first time? Yeah, him! Well.....when FA guns (lets say sears...but RR M16s, etc are all tracking along more or less) skyrocket in price..... there is more of a tendency for those nice arse guns to stay in the safe , living as queens...never to see the light of day except for a sale.

That's what bothers me. These guns wont get shot or taken out as often. They are moving from the Porsche world status (pretty cool but still kinda reasonable daily driver) to Ferrari supercar status where one would have to be crazy as hell to drive her a lot in public , etc....so they sit in the garage....perhaps appreciating, but sitting idle nevertheless.

And this price action crudely performs the exact same thing the fed Govt would like to see.... no FA shooting. So kudos to everyone who has a happy horde of NFA guns sitting in a damn safe. Yeah, I'm pissed. I want to see them, coddle them, shoot them...or at least hang out with you while you do so!

(rant off now)
Houston

 

[USSarizona]

Very eloquently communicated.

 

[nuge]

Yes, I have HK sears (Fleming or Qualified only for me) and at the risk of offending someone who might be "sear poor" compared to what I have......

The Sear hunter/gatherer force is strong in this one...

I'm not sear poor, maybe middle class. But I defintely admire your collection! Your strategy of replacing RRs with sears is intriguing.

Recent WTS for Sears/RDIAS are back in the 13-14K range, maybe the spikes are smoothing out.

 

[hkg3k]

On a higher level...and as a NFA collector/shooter... It bothers me to see our sport really pricing out so many regular gun loving Americans. That kid you let shoot your M16 in the past...you know, your buddy's kid ...that shit eating ear to ear grin he had plastered across his face immed. after shooting FA for the first time? Yeah, him! Well.....when FA guns (lets say sears...but RR M16s, etc are all tracking along more or less) skyrocket in price..... there is more of a tendency for those nice arse guns to stay in the safe , living as queens...never to see the light of day except for a sale.

Good points.....and not the 1st time your concerns have been voiced. I've been in this game long enough I can tell you 1st hand full auto popularity is stronger today than it was 10, 15 or 20 years ago when the price of admission was a fraction of what it is today. Will increasing prices change that in the future? Who knows.

I personally have one gun in my collection I consider a "queen." More for sentimental reasons than for the value of the gun......my 1st full auto; an MP40 my father brought back from Germany after his service in WW2, registered in the 68 amnesty and transfered to me almost 30 years ago for my 21st birthday. I haven't shot this one in 3 or 4 years......I'd probably shoot it more often if I had fewer choices. To me, its a "time capsule" of my dad's military service and I don't want to do anything to do harm to it. Everything else in my collection sees regular use.

Another pertinent reason to me for converting RR guns (where I could) to sear counterparts is the simple fact I DON'T have to worry about the damage and wear/tear of using a valuable firearm. I'm not sure I'd feel the same way about a like new factory Colt M16A2 or Billistics PP MP5. With sear guns.......the receiver is the cheap "disposable" part. No worries about stress or damage to an all steel part sitting in the trigger group that really sees no stress. I don't really see how anyone could apply "queen" status to a registered sear.

And as you say.......there's nothing like putting a big grin on the face of a kid. I think I've done (and will keep doing) my part........

 

[amphibian]

Good points.....and not the 1st time your concerns have been voiced. I've been in this game long enough I can tell you 1st hand full auto popularity is stronger today than it was 10, 15 or 20 years ago when the price of admission was a fraction of what it is today. Will increasing prices change that in the future? Who knows.

I personally have one gun in my collection I consider a "queen." More for sentimental reasons than for the value of the gun......my 1st full auto; an MP40 my father brought back from Germany after his service in WW2, registered in the 68 amnesty and transfered to me almost 30 years ago for my 21st birthday. I haven't shot this one in 3 or 4 years......I'd probably shoot it more often if I had fewer choices. To me, its a "time capsule" of my dad's military service and I don't want to do anything to do harm to it. Everything else in my collection sees regular use.

Another pertinent reason to me for converting RR guns (where I could) to sear counterparts is the simple fact I DON'T have to worry about the damage and wear/tear of using a valuable firearm. I'm not sure I'd feel the same way about a like new factory Colt M16A2 or Billistics PP MP5. With sear guns.......the receiver is the cheap "disposable" part. No worries about stress or damage to an all steel part sitting in the trigger group that really sees no stress. I don't really see how anyone could apply "queen" status to a registered sear.

And as you say.......there's nothing like putting a big grin on the face of a kid. I think I've done (and will keep doing) my part........

+1 well said. Awesome to hear about your MP40. Not only has military history but family history as well. I hope that piece will always remain in your family.

I too saw this coming regarding the sears vs RR's. I'm a shooter before a collector as well. I traded a RR Colt SP1 conversion as a straight trade for my single steel RDIAS several years ago when interest in the RDIAS' were low. I still have a factory Colt 614 which is pretty much dedicated to my belt fed LM7. I've got KNS hammer/trigger and a sear pin on that one so I don't see how it could get any wear. I also like having it around as a sanity check for timing. Like when I got my Shrike, I put it on that lower to check the timing and compared it to my RDIAS and it was the exact same as the Colt.

 

[JTinIN]

If recently there was a $20K DIAS sold and a $14 DIAS sold, that averages out to $17K or maybe down a tiny bit from the previous average discussed average of $18K. Actually is just too much unknown data (i.e. actual selling price or if the sear even sells vs. being removed from sale) with too few of data points - but liked the concept of the price of DIAS is falling, need to sell now ;-).