DLO box pending purchase problems since 6/2021

secondofangle

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Hey, guys - wanting to get some advice on a dilemma I face. And please if you want to be helpful, I don't need to hear how stupid or naive you think I've been, just tell me how you would proceed from where I find myself.

I paid $40K to a seller in Florida in May/June 2021 for a DLO frame. Seller is a physician with a clear online footprint (I am too), and I checked references before sale. The DLO is/was on a F3 at his dealer - he never took possession of it. New F3 to my dealer submitted after my payment was received. Rejected by examiner because of some sort of address discrepancy on the seller's dealer's SOT. The plan around September was for SOT to resolve that discrepancy and resubmit. The address thing has apparently been resolved so early November they resubmitted the F3. There is no word on the status as of last week - "still pending". I have been in periodic communication with the seller, but not his dealer until today (edited to add below) .Seller says he has several other items trying to get through F3s and F4s with same dealer, some successful some not. (Seller's one reference I contacted before sale confirmed that he's sold numerous items in 2021 - he's liquidating a sizable collection.) Seller earlier offered to refund my money; I declined b/c I've been looking for one for years and I have reason to believe if I find one again it will cost me more than $40k. I have seen pics of the item, and of the F3 it's on with the transferree listed being the dealer my seller is using and who has possession of the item.

I just called the dealer (Mark at Naples Guns and Ammo in Naples FL). He answered the phone right away and seemed to remember my item but offered few specifics. Seemed busy/frazzled. Said mine didn't go through but another several did go through with the SOT that was originally submitted; and regardless that the "address discrepancy" had been resolved and he expects it to go through this time "but with ATF you never know." Said he had heard from seller about a week ago too (when I had emailed asking for an update), but "I don't have the paperwork in front of me and can't tell you anything more - when it comes through in the mail that's when I'll know." Seemed like a nice enough guy but did not offer to go out of his way to reassure me with any hard data or anything, which is at least a little odd.

My inclination is to ask the seller to temporarily refund 50% of the sale price until the F3 is approved and I repay it before item ships to my dealer. That way he has "skin in the game" too - right now I'm the only one with skin in the game.

Thoughts on this? Any other options?

Thanks!

SOA
 

Villafuego

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"The DLO is/was on a F3 at his dealer - he never took possession of it"

There is your problem right there
 

rsideout

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Did the dealer never take possession, or the seller? Makes more sense for it to be the seller that never did an F4 for transfer from that dealer. Sounds more like the dealer might have recently renewed his FFL/SOT or made some business/address changes to his license since the original transfer. Especially if this item has been sitting there for some time waiting for the seller to make up his mind to keep it or sell.
 
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secondofangle

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The seller to me of the box bought it in 2018 and never filed a F4 so he could take it home. He kept it as an investment in his dealer’s safe. Then sold to me. F3 is in his dealers name and new F3 to my dealer not approved
 

gorillastomp

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Should have requested the dealer to e-file it to your dealer this would have sped
the process up usually just a few weeks. Now if you are a Florida resident also and you are waiting on the form 4 approval then yes there is nothing the dealer or seller can do but wait until approval/denial. I know it sucks but welcome to the NFA waiting game.
 

Gaujo

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I'd just wait. Sounds on the up and up. Just had a deal the form 3 to sellers dealer took 8 months due to ATF shenanigans. Just check in once a month.
 

secondofangle

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Thank you for that. That's what I've been doing, and I don't want to be a douche and start making demands.
 

Captain murrica

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John thedford sold MG’s with Nfasales in the Naples area for decades and he’s a member here. Maybe reach out to him to see if he knows this dealer and could help ease the mind.
 

TheColtCollector

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Send me your info and call me. I go down to Naples often, I can check in on your behalf and just say I’m your brother if you want. Helped out a few guys like this before, easy to ignore a guy on the phone but not someone in person
 

ScottinTexas

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Thanks guys! Looks like it's still not resolved, second F3 was disapproved.

Well that really blows.

Now what are you going to do? I'm guessing YOU can't call the BATF to speak with the examiner since you're not a party to the F3, but your dealer can. And he should, it appears to me.
 

mattnh

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Disapproved or sent back for a correction?
Dealer needs to call examiner ASAP to resolve it.
Corrections have to be done in 30 days.
My guess is the examiner would prob fast-track a F3 that
Has been disapproved twice…

Why is the dealer not using e-forms?
Only takes a week or so to process that way…

Matt
 

pjm204

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I've certainly had forms disapproved that I've had to fix "errors" on. Definitely not uncommon.
 

secondofangle

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So this dealer is a shit show and probably does not have a current valid SOT, it turns out. Either b/c he did not renew it or has an address/business SNAFU that he is too obtuse, slovenly, or indolent to resolve, or b/c he has run afoul of the local ATF office (this has been insinuated).

Another buyer of a similar item from the same seller & same dealer/SOT, and I are stuck trying to determine if the SOT is willing and able to get a current/valid SOT (since he sold his business he seems to have little motivation to), and if not, as is likely, we are in a position of trying to get him to send it on an F4 to another dealer. The problem is the wait time. So if he is going to get his SOT resolved soon, we should wait. IF that's a bluff or he's FOS, we should ask him to proceed directly to F4. But if we can't trust him to do the former, can we trust him to do the latter?

He has not sent me or the other buyer, who has been in contact with him at least 3 times in the past 9 months, any corroboration whatsoever of any legitimate activity on his part. SOT/F3, nothing.

At what point do we flame the seller of these items on the boards to warn others of what awaits them if they buy anything from this seller whose SOT is an incompetent POS and cannot get the items, which he holds on F3s, transferred to the buyers? This is a complete mess right now. This seller should not be selling anything else with this SOT and should be working diligently to get everything transferred to a legitimate dealer. He is not doing that, choosing instead to leave me and the other buyer to figure it out.
 
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ScottinTexas

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Maybe ask the seller to refund your payment plus $5K for your trouble.

Perhaps verbiage about impending legal action involving fraud and failure to deliver might be fruitful.

If that doesn't work, it's not flaming, it's posting facts.
 

secondofangle

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I'm demanding an F4 transfer, in the next 2 weeks, along with photos and USPS priority mail tracking, to my local SOT. Anybody ought to be able to do that. If they cannot do that, something is amiss and I need to get a refund. Time will tell
 
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secondofangle

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here's the latest:

I’m posting this because there are many (many!) items in this situation with this seller which are totally unable to be transferred until he and his dealer get the situation unf*&ked, and they don’t have any viable plan to do so. This is not entirely seller’s fault, though some amateurism, naivete, incompetence, negligence, and indolence, on his part and that of his “dealer”, were clearly at work and conspired to drag this saga on for more than 9 months.

Short recap: 9 months ago I purchased a DLO frame, on an F3 with his dealer, from earlwisr on Sturm. The seller is Dr. David S., a physician in Naples, FL. It was never able to be transferred from his dealer, Mr. Mark J. M., who formerly had a business called RICMARFL, LLC, associated with Naples Guns and Ammo at 572 Tamiami Trail North in Naples FL. (This is the information on the F3.) During the 9 months, I had lots of opportunity cost/lost interest with my $40,000 tied up; lost out on appreciation in the MG market during that time; missed out on 2 other DLO boxes; and incurred countless hours of time and frustration emailing, researching and trying to get this item transferred, as detailed elsewhere. This culminated with my paying hundreds of dollars yesterday for a legal consultation with Prince Law Firm in PA (Firearms/NFA specialists) for guidance on how to proceed.

F3s were allegedly (I was never shown them) submitted twice and disapproved for my item and at least one other trigger pack bought by another guy who will remain unnamed unless he chimes in. Same situation both items. After dicking us around for 9 months, I, through my own research and diligence, and the assistance of Prince Law learned that:

• Mr. Mark J. M. (MJM) dissolved RICMARFL, LLC in 2019; it is a non-entity in Florida
• MJM sold Naples Guns and Ammo in or about 2019; the address is also changed
• MJM does not have an active FFL – it was either lost, relinquished, not renewed whatever
• MJM does not have an active SOT
• MJM has ruffled feathers with his local ATF branch/agents
• The legal status of the items that MJM has on F3s from when he was an FFL/SOT in good standing, and when he owned RICMARFL, LLC and Naples G&A is uncertain; the path forward to transfer them is likewise uncertain
• AFT recommended to my SOT that the DLO be transferred on an F4, but it’s not clear what should be listed on the F4 since none of what existed on the F3 is a legal entity associated with MJM any more
• MJM allegedly has spoken with AFT about this situation, but is not forthcoming with any information whatsoever about such meeting, stating nothing more than vagaries such as “they’re working on it”

During those 9 months, neither the seller nor MJM revealed any of this to me, despite dozens of contacts with them, which would have made the problems very clear, allowing me to exit earlier. They just kept repeating that “we have to wait to see if this F3 gets through.” This was plain amateurish bungling and negligence at best, intentionally deceptive of them at worst, . MJM clearly knew all of the above, and Dr. David S could have, or should have known most or all of the above. (Dr. David S and MJM are friends, but MJM has exited the firearms business and in conversations with him he has made clear that this whole situation is a giant nuisance for him, and he lacks the time, motivation [and apparently the know-how] to remedy it.)

My grievances aside, since they apparently cannot be remedied besides the refund I’ve been issued, I advise everybody else to steer clear of these two because they don’t know what the hell they’re doing and have absolutely no viable plan or path forward to transfer what appears to be, according to the seller, dozens or scores of items in this same SNAFU, on F3s with a legal non-entity listed.
Caveat Emptor.
 
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b_saan

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Just a clarifier regarding "The legal status of the items that MJM has on F3s from when he was an FFL/SOT in good standing, and when he owned RICMARFL, LLC and Naples G&A is uncertain"... The legal status is not uncertain, if the items were legally possessed with an approved ATF form by RICMARFL, LLC and the LLC was dissolved, the items are now in the illegal possession of MJM who is not nor ever was the actual legal entity RICMARFL, LLC. Whether or not the ATF will allow him to continue to possess those items and/or transfer them out to buyers or the original owner while the saga plays out is at their discretion but does not mean he is in compliance with the law.
 

ScottinTexas

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Kind of a worst nightmare.

And it sounds like the MJM fellow SHOULD be getting a knock on the door from the BATF.

Hope it works out.
 

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