M16 price

MuzzleFlash

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Quarterbore said:
I would also suggest confirming your facts regarding having any machinegun remanufactured.... I will give you $20 if you can show me in writing where the ATF says that a M-16 can be remanufactured onto a new lower.

The ATF has said that you can remanufacture semi-auto rifle lowers as a REPAIR but to my knowledge this was and is not allowed for machineguns.
Right-o on the money. Do this and the gun will be contraband. Go here to read James Bardwell's NFA FAQ. Very good info, including this little gem:
In every case, the conversion part(s) are installed into a semi-automatic gun, and without converting the semi-auto gun's receiver to machine gun specification, the new part(s) will allow the gun to fire as a machine gun. If the registered conversion part breaks or wears out it cannot be replaced, only repaired, if possible. BATF considers replacing it with a new part to be the new manufacture of a machine gun, and a civilian could not own it, as it would have been made after the effective date of 18 U.S.C. sec. 922(o). This wear/breakage thing is also true of the receiver on a gun where that is the registered part, but in general the receiver is less subject to wear or breakage than a small part, like a sear. Being larger, a receiver may also be easier to repair.
 

montana_jeepn

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I'm about to send mine into OLY to be rebuilt. Now I think I might hold off. Can Oly produce documentation from ATF that it is okay? I've seen this discussion on this board, and AR15.com, and I have seen people on both sides of the debate backing up their position with bits and pieces of info. I mean I would hate to write and ask, receiving a letter back and in the process creating policy, but I would hate to turn my new M-16 into contraband.

M_J
 

Renegade

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montana_jeepn said:
I'm about to send mine into OLY to be rebuilt. Now I think I might hold off. Can Oly produce documentation from ATF that it is okay?

M_J

Oly has a lot more to lose than you do. I doubt they would do it if it was a violation of the law. Note the quote above is about DIAS, not RR. Also, maybe there is a new ruling or court case that has changed ATF opinion. Oly would know.
 
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montana_jeepn

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Well, My dealer has the form 5 in process, so I guess cross my fingers and hope that it all works out. To the tell you the truth, the temptation of a never fired M-16 in my hands is pretty darn attractive! I'll definitely let you know how it works out.

M_J
 

Quarterbore

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I suggest that if it does work out that you keep your mouth shut unless you are 100% sure what was done is legal... Just because you manage to get it replaced does not mean that they were supposed to do so...

Kind of reminds me of the story of the little bird that was freezing in the snow when a cow came by and took a dump on it. The little bird warmed up and starting singing. Well, the singing bird attracted a fox and that was the end of the happy little bird....

Don't sing too loud if you manage to get this to work or e-mail me or someone else that you trust so that it is clear that "someone knows someone that had this done" as it would really suck to have the ATF get involved and you later loose your MG!

Personally, I would be confirming with the ATF before I did anything as a $7000 - $8000 M-16 is not something that I could afford to forfit myself and the criminal fines would be even worse if the ATF went that route...

Oh well, I tried to scare you... good luck and like I said if you get me a letter from the ATF that says this if fine I will pay you $20 for your time. I just don't think it will happen with a pre-86 transferable Machinegun. Now, if you have a post-sample gun, well that is 100% different!
 
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Quarterbore

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Re: m16

Matt41 said:
Just an FYI. There are some Oly arms m16 RR on subguns for $7500. Saw this a couple of weeks ago. The neat thing about Oly arms RR is that you can have the receiver reproduced. Yep I already spoken to them about this and have a letter from BATF saying it's legal. They are starting the Titanium reciever again in December!

BTW Matt41... I will pay you the $20 for the letter you say you have... I just need to see that it clearly states that they can remanufacture a TRANSFERABLE M-16 via a new receiver... Do you want a quick $20??? E-mail me and I wil give you a Fax number or address so I can get a copy and I will pay you $20 in cash.
 

tony k

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For the sake of those who are trusting Olympic and going for new receivers, let me say I REALLY, REALLY hope and pray it'll work out OK for you.

But FWIW, I'm with Quarterbore on this one.

After 10 years in the NFA game I've seen BATF reverse and revise so many rulings, and almost all are at the expense of NFA owners. And many of them have turned once-legal transferable MGs into contraband or post-samples, often years after the owners bought them at then-current transferable prices.

A recent example is the roundup of parts kits that, after they were sold, BATF decided they had been improperly demilled and thus had never ceased to be MGs. AFAIK, no one has been reimbursed for one cent of the cost -- the innocent buyers are just out the money.

Going back a few years, BATF did the same thing for M14 receivers that had been demilled and then built up again as match M1As that sold for $1k-$2k. BATF sat by while dozens were heavily advertised in magazines and sold, then went on a roundup. Again, AFAIK no one ever got a cent back, from either BATF or the manufacturer.

In the late '80s BATF decided to "re-date" several types of LMGs and HMGs. In these cases, they decided -- years after they had been sold to civilians -- that the subject MGs were completed after the May 19, 1986 cutoff. In these cases, BATF took pity and let the owners keep them .... but they were reclassed as post-samples and could only transfer in the future as post-samples, at post-sample prices. Folks lost tens of thousands in that one.

Also -- in 1988, IIRC -- BATF ruled that folks who had purchased registered AK sears but had not yet installed them in receivers could no longer do so, because to install them required drilling semi receivers as hosts. And in that case, BATF simply revoked the registration of the sears. The owners had an expensive, useless piece of metal. Again, no compensation.

Given the value of registered transferable M16 receivers today, I believe that if BATF decided to confiscate the replacement receivers, the owners would have a cause of action against Olympic. So yes, you could sue them. Of course, Olympic would have a defense that they were acting in good faith and that they truly believed their actions were legal. It would be interesting to see how it panned out in court ..... but someone would be paying lawyers a ton of money to find out.

IMHO, I would keep the most beat-up lower rather than run that risk. YMMV.
 

MuzzleFlash

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Renegade said:
... Note the quote above is about DIAS, not RR. Also, maybe there is a new ruling or court case that has changed ATF opinion. Oly would know.
Huh? The Bardwell quote is clear on this applying to receivers as well as conversion parts. I even underlined the part germane to this thread.

The only way you are in the clear is if the US Supreme Court rules that replacement is not new manufacture. Otherwise the BATF can, does and often will reverse itself - usually at the behest of a new administration.

Don't forget, thanks to Bush, the ATF is now in the DOJ and there WILL be another Janet Reno type gun-hating AG calling the shots in our future. Remember too that forfeiture is a seperate action from criminal prosecution. It may be hard for them to prosecute you criminally, but they will target your firearm. It happens all the time. Your firearm is subject to forfeiture if it ever existed illegally at anytime in it's life. Thje only exception is those guns registered under the amnesty.

So, if the ATF technical branch ever reverses itself on this (assuming they have indeed ruled that replacement is legal) you will most certainly get screwed. The only question is to what degree. If you're lucky you'll end up with a post-sample.
 

Renegade

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MuzzleFlash said:
Huh? The Bardwell quote is clear on this applying to receivers as well as conversion parts. I even underlined the part germane to this thread.

Well you know, sometimes you can't see the trees becuase the forest is in the way. :)

This whole issue is kind of off-track, it is not like RR or RAC or RDIAS are breaking routinely and need fixing. In my entire life I have only seen one AR-15 blow-up, and it was a result of reloads. And most problems can be fixed by a competent metalsmith.
 

xm15e2s

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fools fools. As far as being quite if it works....well you just told hundreds of people and if you use a form 5, you left a paper trail. please take my advice and never trust anyone. i am thinking there is no BATF letter. i have written a few letters to BATF and always received wordy crap in return, often talking about things I never even asked about. Get it in writting that what you want to do is legal or I have no pitty on you. No I dont think you will ever go to jail but i do know that the total joy of owning a MG will forever be lessened if you are unsure "which you should be" that it was legal.
by the way, BATF just loves Oly in the first place......"we had a fire and most of our records on our prebans were lost".
 
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montana_jeepn

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After all this sound advice, I think I'm going to halt the process of sending it back and get some more indepth clarification before I proceed. Thanks all!

M_J
 

Quarterbore

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What the hell...? I just got to spend some time at ARFCOM and I found this thread....

http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=14&t=166096&page=2

Now, there are some people involved in that thread that are C-3s and they claim to be doing this as well? I still do not buy it and we need to see some of these supposed letters to see the actual verbage the letter says.

For as many people that have claimed to have one of these letters, why isn't there one being shared yet? Very Strange!
 
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Quarterbore

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The offer still stands...

new20.gif


For a copy of a letter that says this is OK...
 

Matt41

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OK. The letter I recieved from the locals is non-specific. In other words useless. I have, however, been in touch with the people at the NFA Branch in DC. It is legal to send RR back to the original manufacturer of the reciever not the person who made the conversion. If the manufacturer determines that replacement is the repair for the damaged reciever this is legal. Too bad for those of you who own Colt's. By ATF's policy to recieve a letter on their letterhead I had to make a written request. Letter was sent out 10/8/03. If you don't believe me send a letter to ATF

BATF NFA Branch
650 Massachusetts NW
WA DC, 20226
Address the specific question of Oly arms RR replacement by the factory.

I will print the letter as soon as it arrives from the folks in DC.

If one of the moderators would like to contact me via my personal email I will give them the name and number of the agent I have been dealing with on this matter. That is if any of you want to confirm my unbelieveable story.

Matt
 

Quarterbore

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Matt,

No problem, just hard to believe... If you get the letter I will pay you $20 for a copy... Honest to god... Just let me know when you get it!

I just want to see it in writing from the BATFE and not Olympic or some other source that says the ATF says it is OK...
 

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From Sturmgewehr...

NFA Market Board

WTS Colt M16 A1 Carbine New in Box

Posted By: R <RandLC@msn.com> (user248.net053.lv.sprint-hsd.net)
Date: 10/18/03 19:38

New in Colt factory box with all accessories. Gun still in plastic and still has wick in bbl. $11,500
 

Quarterbore

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Matt41 said:
OK. The letter I recieved from the locals is non-specific. In other words useless. I have, however, been in touch with the people at the NFA Branch in DC. It is legal to send RR back to the original manufacturer of the reciever not the person who made the conversion. If the manufacturer determines that replacement is the repair for the damaged reciever this is legal. Too bad for those of you who own Colt's. By ATF's policy to recieve a letter on their letterhead I had to make a written request. Letter was sent out 10/8/03. If you don't believe me send a letter to ATF

BATF NFA Branch
650 Massachusetts NW
WA DC, 20226
Address the specific question of Oly arms RR replacement by the factory.

I will print the letter as soon as it arrives from the folks in DC.

If one of the moderators would like to contact me via my personal email I will give them the name and number of the agent I have been dealing with on this matter. That is if any of you want to confirm my unbelieveable story.

Matt

This crazy story popped up on ARFCOM again... Matt, did you get a letter? Anybody got anything in writing? I don't have anything I would want replaced anyways but I worry that people will get burnt in this deal as if people cried about an $200 I/O FAL kit waite until the BATFE comes for their $9000 Registered Receiver AR-15!
 

Matt41

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No, not yet... still waiting. I'm happy to give you the agent's name and number If you contact me by private email. I sent a letter off to BATF about two months ago. I have never heard back. I will call the NFA branch and start bugging these guys. It shouldn't have taken this long to recieve a reply. I will keep everyone posted.
Matt
 

Quarterbore

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Honestly, I have also had a couple letter's get "lost" when I asked questions about the issue about a vertical forgrip on a pistol... This may actually be good news that you didn't hear as perhaps they are struggling with the way the code is written to tell you no?
 

Renegade

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Quarterbore said:
Honestly, I have also had a couple letter's get "lost" when I asked questions about the issue about a vertical forgrip on a pistol...

By definition, handguns are designed to be fired with one hand. Putting foregrip on it makes it designed for two hands, which makes it a rifle, and with the short barrel, it becomes NFA.
 
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