Lage M10 upper stovepiping without the can. How to tune for the ammo.

[Starvingboy]

Took the new Lage upper out this weekend, and WITH the can the thing ran flawless. Without the can, it stovepiped with several different brands of ammunition. What's the typical method for tuning? Trim the recoil spring?

I figure I'll call Lage and order a extra recoil spring or two, but they're not awake yet

 

[LawBob]

Took the new Lage upper out this weekend, and WITH the can the thing ran flawless. Without the can, it stovepiped with several different brands of ammunition. What's the typical method for tuning? Trim the recoil spring?

I figure I'll call Lage and order a extra recoil spring or two, but they're not awake yet

45 or 9? What ammo?

 

[Starvingboy]

Whoops, sorry. .45 ammo, tried Blazer and S&B (I think) plus some Federal. This is more of a general question. The gun runs, I just wanted to know how to tune it better for various ammo. I assume there is a lighter recoil spring available, no?

 

[Concorde]

I assume there is a lighter recoil spring available, no?

Just get an extra recoil spring and start cutting coils off of it...

 

[Battering ram NIB]

he gave me a 1" longer spring to help improve some minor issues ive been having....it runs worse at the moment with it though....im buying some winchester to test mine out with.....i think weak ammo is my problem....buy cheap stuff and its what you get....

his springs cost next to nothing...buy 5 of them and experiment.

 

[Starvingboy]

... new springs on order. MAN but those people are nice to work with! Super-good customer service. Now to find some range-time to tinker and get things tuned up and dialed in.

 

[Battering ram NIB]

white box .45 is $73 per 200 round pack at walmart....

might be a good idea to pick up a few boxes

my plan is to use it if i do any competitions and use the blah stuff for normal fun time

 

[cjsoccer3]

To battering ram what did the 1 inch longer springs do for you? Also Starvingboy keep us posted...This is actually the exact issue I'm working on so the more info between the three of us the better - it may not be in my mag lips then. I did notice my suppressor helped FTEs I'm just trying to not be married to it.

The spring is a great idea.

 

[Battering ram NIB]

the 1" longer spring made it go from jamming every 250 rounds to jamming every 15-20 rounds (ha)....it didnt help me at all.....but i only shot Armscore ammo which may be more of the problem than anything else

ive got spare springs....im going to shoot white box next time...if that works i will try cutting the spring back 1" again..i think everything may be my ammo

Lage also suggested looking at my magazine height and bent lips....so ill strip the springs out of everything and do the uzi rock back and forth test on it

i wasnt horribly upset at 1 jam per 200-250 rounds before...i figured why not try to improve it....sadly it went the opposite way this time...but an easy fix...

even my POS Uzi shot pretty good with white box ammo......so i have 0 doubts i will shoot 240 rounds w/o a jam this weekend...

 

[Starvingboy]

so, longer spring made it worse, shorter spring should make it better. I'm not afraid to tune the gun a bit, I KNOW it will function. With the can, it never skipped a beat. Nice controllable rate of fire, good ergonomics.... we REALLY should have dialed in the sights at some point

 

[A&S Conversions]

If the gun ran with a can but had failure to eject problems without the can, what did the can do? To me the can effectively increased barrel length. An increase in barrel length increases dwell time. Dwell time is the time that there's pressure inside the barrel pushing the base of the shell against the face of the bolt. The greater the dwell time the greater the transfer of energy into the bolt.

The recoil spring absorbs this energy slowing the bolt. If the system is in balance the bolt should come all the way back making for brisk ejection without the bolt pounding into the back of the receiver. Does the bolt rub on the feedlips of the mag? If not, is the strength of the recoil spring not allowing the bolt to have the full stroke? As stated before, the spring should be strong enough to strip and chamber rounds and absorb the recoil energy of the bolt. But soft enough to allow full stroke without the bolt pounding into the back of the receiver too hard.

I would think with the small amount of increased energy of the can, cutting a coil or two should fix the problem. I would double check to be sure that the bolt has nothing that is rubbing on it robbing recoil energy. Good luck with your function problem.

Scott

 

[rybread]

If the gun ran with a can but had failure to eject problems without the can, what did the can do? To me the can effectively increased barrel length. An increase in barrel length increases dwell time. Dwell time is the time that there's pressure inside the barrel pushing the base of the shell against the face of the bolt. The greater the dwell time the greater the transfer of energy into the bolt.

The recoil spring absorbs this energy slowing the bolt. If the system is in balance the bolt should come all the way back making for brisk ejection without the bolt pounding into the back of the receiver. Does the bolt rub on the feedlips of the mag? If not, is the strength of the recoil spring not allowing the bolt to have the full stroke? As stated before, the spring should be strong enough to strip and chamber rounds and absorb the recoil energy of the bolt. But soft enough to allow full stroke without the bolt pounding into the back of the receiver too hard.

I would think with the small amount of increased energy of the can, cutting a coil or two should fix the problem. I would double check to be sure that the bolt has nothing that is rubbing on it robbing recoil energy. Good luck with your function problem.

Scott

Scott nailed it, it's additional recoil from compressed gasses.. to run it without the can just trim a spring a tad. This is why I like the ILWT shorty barrels for slow fire configurations!

 

[Vegas SMG]

MAX-10/45 right?

Richard ships only his uppers after extensive testing and evaluation to cover a range of variations found on lower receivers from several different manufacturers. A heavy bolt coupled with a reduced pressure recoil spring require no excess magazine to bolt rub or other sources of uncommon friction that would slow down the bolt. Lightly lubed?

Scott's answer has some great advise and sound reasoning. While that's not my product, I'd advise only clipping a coil or two at a time. Too many removed and you'll be flirting with light primer strikes or failure to strip rounds from a magazine. There's a narrow range for acceptable spring rates. Go slow. You may find it runs just fine with the original length spring after break in.

My experience with the KeepShooting Korean clone GG mags hasn't been as positive as others have reported. I had about one malfunction per one hundred rounds in an otherwise flawless functioning gun. Today I only use USGI GG mags and I don't regret my decision to sell the clones.

 

[cjsoccer3]

To aid in this, does anyone have an exact approach to determine if mag lips are touching the bolt? Perhaps wear marks on the mags? I'm also curious how you disassemble the bolt to get to the mainspring - an Allen key?

Again, keep us posted. I will likely ask to buy a spare spring soon and give this a try. Very appreciative this thread had been started.

 

[nklf]

To disassemble the bold. Compress the main spring and push the guide rod through the bolt. You will notice a roll pin in the end of the guide rod. Support the guide rod and remove the roll pin. Be careful as it is easy to bend the guide rod. There is a paper lip mod on this site to replace the roll pin.

To test mags remove the main sprig and buffer from the bot and reassemble with out them. Insert a mag and tilt the gun to see if the bolt sleds freely or hangs up on the mag lips.

 

[cjsoccer3]

Oh I was saying the Lage recoil spring (removing that) not the OEM.

 

[Starvingboy]

heh, since I'm the guy who started this mess: I'll make sure to report back once I have something to report. I hold the title of "Dad", and live in a city, so free time to tinker with guns doesn't happen every day. I expect the new springs to arrive any day now. That, combined with a long weekend, and I should have some news in a few days.

 

[Starvingboy]

Range report: Trimmed 2.5-3 coils off the spring, and the gun is running well. Not quiet 100%, and then we ran low on ammo and switched to Blazer, at which point the gun no longer wanted to run at all. I'm finding a reoccurring theme with these Subguns: Ammo runs out FAST

The next step is to get more ammo and keep tuning. One more month until the races at the creek.

 

[A&S Conversions]

Did you check to see if the bolt is dragging on the mag(s)? How about the ejection and recoil spring guide, if the mag is over inserted or the bolt falls out of the upper, they can be bend and cause more drag. Any drag on the bolt can increase function problems.

Scott

 

[Battering ram NIB]

one issue i believe im having is over oiling the bolt...richard told me to only use rem oil (a light oil)...i had been using a thick oil and leaving it wet...ill be testing mine this next weekend...it makes sense on mine since it seems to jam on the first few mags and then runs good...i figure it burns the oil off at that point....something to look into in case your like me