HK MP5 Platform (transferable full auto options)
- Thread starter New Hampshire SMG
- Start date
yes....in the reference library at hkpro.com .It's all explained - all the conversion types, etc. It's a very difficult piece for someone who's not familiar with machine guns to digest. Read it. Several times. Every few years too. HK conversions are some of the most confusing.
As far as a book - well there's the Project 64 book but its focus is not nec. on American legal pre-1986 HK conversion types, etc.
here you go just because im feeling more friendly than usual.
https://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=141%3Athe-complete-reference-on-the-legal-nfa-conversion-of-hk-firearms&catid=4%3Aspecial-topics
read this several times, take notes, then return and ask questions here or at hkpro.com
https://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=141%3Athe-complete-reference-on-the-legal-nfa-conversion-of-hk-firearms&catid=4%3Aspecial-topics
read this several times, take notes, then return and ask questions here or at hkpro.com
secondofangle
Well-known member
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- Dec 25, 2015
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- 296
I just spent 2 hours reading the information posted about these. Here's my take, to check myself against others.
#1 is a registered Fleming sear (desirable and properly heat treated) that has been installed into a semi-auto trigger pack to allow it to clip on to a non-push pin receiver. Or it is a modified select fire machine gun pack that was modified to fit a clip on receiver. The host gun is just a registered SBR. Pack can be moved to any other host gun.
#2 is a double push pin registered receiver that can receive any factory select fire trigger pack, making it very desirable from that standpoint of spare parts and options.
#3 appears to be the same as #1 - a fleming sear in a pack that fits a clip on semi-auto receiver. Pack can be moved to any other host gun. Big plus
#4 is a registered receiver gun with unregistered full auto control parts in the pack. So the pack cannot be separated from the registered receiver and there are the legal grey zone caveats mentioned by Mr. Thomas Hoel in his lengthy exposition of these guns. I think this explains why it is priced 25% lower than the others.
Looks to me, based on Ruben's website that there are 3 price classes:
1.) Highest end is registered fleming sears because of optionality of changing to different host weapons: $42,000
2.) Next is double push pin - $39,000
3.) Lowest is registered receiver with unregistered FCG/pack parts, can't separate to another host gun. $29,000
Is this correct?
BTW autoweapons dude Vaughn Kelerchian is now a felon. Dunno who's running the place now, it must have been in a trust and he changed trustees when he was arrested.
1. HK took FA pack frames and cut out the front lower corner (and thus the "catch" axle hole) to make their semi packs. These semi packs with cut out lower front could then be used on HK semi receivers which have a blocking shelf (prevents a FA pack from attaching). Registered sears fit in these factory HK semi packs with a little legal gunsmithing on the pack. Then add a "retimed" hammer and you're good to go. The registered sear in this type of semi pack has a slightly different geometry than true factory packs (and DLO registered packs) thus requries the retimed hammer. No big deal. This is the most common arrangement you'll come across.
2. yes and the fact that its simply truer to original factory SMG. Keep in mind that HK never imported any true all German full auto guns for transferable purposes as I think that all ended in 1968 if I recall. Collectors prefer guns that are as close to factory as they can get. That would be an imported HK94 which then was SBR'd and brought up to MP5 specs and the shelf was removed and the front pivot pin hole drilled so regular full auto pack could be attached...and the receiver was registered as a machine gun. After a few years ATF said " no longer legal to drill that hole or remove that shelf from even a semi HK"....so then smart jokers came up with the whole registered sear item ...and some took FA packs and cut out the front (notched it) so it'd then fit over semi shelves and they registered those pack frames.
3. yes. this is why registered sears (and registered trigger boxes/frames like DLO) are so expensive. They are powerful and flexible turning most any HK semi into a legal machine gun.
4. The least desirable config is to have an unregistered sear or pack "married" in a registered receiver gun which means it lacks the swing down/front pivot hole (and therefore isnt as collectible) and the sear/box cannot be legally used on another host . Worst of all worlds really.
You are correct in your hierarchy . Add DLO registered trigger box/frame as the highest- a couple grand more pricey than the sear.
2. yes and the fact that its simply truer to original factory SMG. Keep in mind that HK never imported any true all German full auto guns for transferable purposes as I think that all ended in 1968 if I recall. Collectors prefer guns that are as close to factory as they can get. That would be an imported HK94 which then was SBR'd and brought up to MP5 specs and the shelf was removed and the front pivot pin hole drilled so regular full auto pack could be attached...and the receiver was registered as a machine gun. After a few years ATF said " no longer legal to drill that hole or remove that shelf from even a semi HK"....so then smart jokers came up with the whole registered sear item ...and some took FA packs and cut out the front (notched it) so it'd then fit over semi shelves and they registered those pack frames.
3. yes. this is why registered sears (and registered trigger boxes/frames like DLO) are so expensive. They are powerful and flexible turning most any HK semi into a legal machine gun.
4. The least desirable config is to have an unregistered sear or pack "married" in a registered receiver gun which means it lacks the swing down/front pivot hole (and therefore isnt as collectible) and the sear/box cannot be legally used on another host . Worst of all worlds really.
You are correct in your hierarchy . Add DLO registered trigger box/frame as the highest- a couple grand more pricey than the sear.
if you want the simple answer if you are in the market....
go buy a registered sear gun if you are a shooter and highly value the ability to move that sear into other hk/clone hosts.
If you are more of a collector than a shooter and/or see yourself buying only one HK machine gun in your life then go for the no shelf, double push pin, swing down registered receiver gun.
go buy a registered sear gun if you are a shooter and highly value the ability to move that sear into other hk/clone hosts.
If you are more of a collector than a shooter and/or see yourself buying only one HK machine gun in your life then go for the no shelf, double push pin, swing down registered receiver gun.
One clarification re: "married" sears you may also run into:
I would add is that there are numerous <<registered>> (as opposed to unregistered) HK sears that are only temporarily
married to HK host guns because the host gun has not been registered as a SBR (as MG trumps SBR when installed in the host)
To unmarry the sear, the host gun of the registered sear must first be form-1'd into a SBR (or long flash hider permanently attached making in not a SBR).
NFA registry is then updated with a letter.
This situation can be deduced from looking at the F4.
I would add is that there are numerous <<registered>> (as opposed to unregistered) HK sears that are only temporarily
married to HK host guns because the host gun has not been registered as a SBR (as MG trumps SBR when installed in the host)
To unmarry the sear, the host gun of the registered sear must first be form-1'd into a SBR (or long flash hider permanently attached making in not a SBR).
NFA registry is then updated with a letter.
This situation can be deduced from looking at the F4.
Renegade
UZI Talk Supporter, , Semper Vigilo
married is a ill-defined term and probably should not be used as different folks use it in different ways, and then still differently from platform to platform (HK, AR, etc).
I am not sure how you think it can be deduced from the form 4. I have several sears on form 4 and none give any indication of the host firearm.
all true about my usage of the word "married" which I used for expediency of conversation.
for the 2cdangel dude... here's what it refers to...
1. If you have a registered sear (it is the serial number'd item on the form 4) residing in an unregistered rifle with a short barrel...then you cannot legally remove that "married" sear from its host because then that would leave one with an unregistered SBR. And remember as far as SBR, MG regs...MG always trumps SBR...so if you have a registered MG part/gun then SBR regs dont matter. But if you remove that reg. MG part and it leaves an unregistered SBR...trouble. You see this commonly in HK MP5s and HK MP5ks...where way back when the gun was converted and registration took place the maker added a registered sear to the host gun and so wasnt required to also register it as a SBR. The vast majority of people these days if they have a reg. sear "married" in this fashion to a unreg. SBR...well, they then register the host as a stand alone SBR and write a letter to the ATF kinda stating as much (optional prob.). Now they have a reg. sear they can move from host to host and their original host is a registered SBR. So all legal. You also see this in convereted HK SP89s/MP5k. You could say that the sear is "divorced"
2. The other usage of "married" term . As I discussed above if the sear is NOT the registered component (the form 4 should clearly state whether its the sear or the receiver that s the serialized item. This is of critical importance . Definitely must look at the actual form 4 before purchase!) and rather its a registered receiver that happens to contain an unreg. sear as its conversion device...then this sear is permanently "married" to that specific host and can never be moved to other hosts. It cannot be "divorced " as described in 1.
Hopefully that more clear.
for the 2cdangel dude... here's what it refers to...
1. If you have a registered sear (it is the serial number'd item on the form 4) residing in an unregistered rifle with a short barrel...then you cannot legally remove that "married" sear from its host because then that would leave one with an unregistered SBR. And remember as far as SBR, MG regs...MG always trumps SBR...so if you have a registered MG part/gun then SBR regs dont matter. But if you remove that reg. MG part and it leaves an unregistered SBR...trouble. You see this commonly in HK MP5s and HK MP5ks...where way back when the gun was converted and registration took place the maker added a registered sear to the host gun and so wasnt required to also register it as a SBR. The vast majority of people these days if they have a reg. sear "married" in this fashion to a unreg. SBR...well, they then register the host as a stand alone SBR and write a letter to the ATF kinda stating as much (optional prob.). Now they have a reg. sear they can move from host to host and their original host is a registered SBR. So all legal. You also see this in convereted HK SP89s/MP5k. You could say that the sear is "divorced"
2. The other usage of "married" term . As I discussed above if the sear is NOT the registered component (the form 4 should clearly state whether its the sear or the receiver that s the serialized item. This is of critical importance . Definitely must look at the actual form 4 before purchase!) and rather its a registered receiver that happens to contain an unreg. sear as its conversion device...then this sear is permanently "married" to that specific host and can never be moved to other hosts. It cannot be "divorced " as described in 1.
Hopefully that more clear.
easy...if the serialized item on the form 4 is the sear ...then it can be separated from the host after making the host an SBFR.
If the form 4 has the serial number and description of the host receiver then any such sear residing in that host gun is permanately "married" and cannot be moved.
You can definitively tell from the form 4. Easy. No?
oh and whatever "additional info" in Box 4H is just that...additional. It doesnt mean squat other than for description. That box can show "installed in xyz " or be left blank....if the sear is the registered item.
Renegade
UZI Talk Supporter, , Semper Vigilo
The sear being the itemized part gives no info on whether the host is originally rifle or pistol and needs to be SBR'd. HK-94 vs SP-89 being an example. One was a rifle, one was a pistol. Not all hosts started life as rifles and need to be SBR'd. Some are pistols and can be returned to pistol status. I am seeing more and more sear guns coming in on clone receivers and it is hard to tell if it started life as rifle or pistol.
ah.....I see what you mean.
True . not all hosts started as rifles and require SBR. They'd (the pistols) just need their stock removed after sear removed from host.
Well it's not the sear's paperwork responsibility /requirement to have other firearm info on it so we shouldnt expect or want that.
I guess the owner/seller would have to state whether his host began life as a rifle or a pistol. I see your issue (as a buyer of a clone host + reg. sear combo) now with so many hosts being built as pistols instead of rifles.
True . not all hosts started as rifles and require SBR. They'd (the pistols) just need their stock removed after sear removed from host.
Well it's not the sear's paperwork responsibility /requirement to have other firearm info on it so we shouldnt expect or want that.
I guess the owner/seller would have to state whether his host began life as a rifle or a pistol. I see your issue (as a buyer of a clone host + reg. sear combo) now with so many hosts being built as pistols instead of rifles.
secondofangle
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2015
- Messages
- 296
^^^You get what you pay for. But...
I have learned over the past few years that a ton of this "well, the ATF could say...." and "technically...." A lot of it is blowing smoke. It never ever hardly ever comes to be, if ever at all.
There was a recent Colt M16 collection liquidated with some obvious A4 receivers that were post-1986 done as an inside job with old registered serial numbers at Colt by an employee. People spouted all the "what ifs" and scared some people (like me) away from them, yet they kept selling and very very prominent dealers were involved, some likely playing dumb. Some guns were getting *premiums* *because* of the A4 features, or post-1986 rollmarks such as M4 Carbine. These were true "legal grey zone" guns.
So I dunno if the price reduction is really in the extra alleged "risk" that comes with this HK gun (you get it cheaper because you're taking on this risk), or rather whether it's the reduced originality and flexibility noted in many of the posts above. I suspect it's the latter.
I have learned over the past few years that a ton of this "well, the ATF could say...." and "technically...." A lot of it is blowing smoke. It never ever hardly ever comes to be, if ever at all.
There was a recent Colt M16 collection liquidated with some obvious A4 receivers that were post-1986 done as an inside job with old registered serial numbers at Colt by an employee. People spouted all the "what ifs" and scared some people (like me) away from them, yet they kept selling and very very prominent dealers were involved, some likely playing dumb. Some guns were getting *premiums* *because* of the A4 features, or post-1986 rollmarks such as M4 Carbine. These were true "legal grey zone" guns.
So I dunno if the price reduction is really in the extra alleged "risk" that comes with this HK gun (you get it cheaper because you're taking on this risk), or rather whether it's the reduced originality and flexibility noted in many of the posts above. I suspect it's the latter.
colossians323
Well-known member
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- Apr 6, 2019
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there are no grey areas with Reuben. Call him up with your questions. he will walk you through it. He may be expensive, but he is not a crook.
Wow, talk about comprehension issues. I never said that Reuben was the cause of the gray areas or a crook in post 35. He was not the original manufacturer or register of these MGs.
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