The beginning of the CF-W A1 (The Prototypes)

[CoffeeFreak]

Here you go Gaujo.

This is the first full tungsten bolt that would eventually be designated the CFW-A1. As you can see it was originally going to be the CF-W 380 until I figured out it ran 9MM. (with some tweaks). The lightning cuts were done later, as we were trying to figure out why it wouldn't run 380 in Strobo32s upper, but ran in mine. We thought it was weight. Turned out to be the ejection angle and the slightly smaller window on his upper was the problem.



This is the copper tungsten alloy prototype. Only one made. I had concern that the firing pin might not hold up. If it had a removable firing pin I think it would have been good to go and pretty cool looking.



Not A1 bolt related but this is the CF-W Gen 1.5. I think this was the best bolt I made (with my own hands). This is one of two and went to the NUTS shoot with a Grey Ghost upper. It weighed right in between the Gen-1 and Gen-2 and had the largest adjustable ROF, and had I not eventually used up all the steel bolts out there to produce the Gen-1, it probably would have been produced in quantity. Note the lack of a top charging handle though. This one was side charging only. This is the bolt the majority of people got to try for the first time and signed up to purchase bolts and Grey Ghost uppers from NUTS. I couldn't keep up with the uppers and asked Sam @ Practical Solutions to make them. There were less then 100 Gen-1 bolts out there at the time and 8 Grey Ghosts uppers, so many shooters including Richard Lage and Tom Wright, and many others saw what it could do for the first time, it was an epiphany for them. Eventually though, due to the shortage of steel bolts I went to the Gen-2 full tungsten alloy bolt.

 

[sigstroker]

"Shortage of steel bolts" sounds so weird.

 

[CoffeeFreak]

"Shortage of steel bolts" sounds so weird.

I know right? There was only one manufacture making them for all the companies that resold them and the owner said it would be a couple years before he made them again. Lage only had enough for himself to last a year and was going to start making his own but I couldn't wait a year. He would have supplied me had I been able to wait. Every M-11/9 sub gun already came with a bolt so I was using up the spares out there. I bought up FTF industries, US Machine guns, Lage Manufacturing, Practical Solutions and a few other sellers bolts and eventually other parts. Then Gen-1 bolts had fixed firing pins. Eventually by the middle of the second wait list of the Gen-2 bolts I would also buy up all the full auto firing pins, retainer pins, OEM recoil springs and extractors. It was really consuming a lot of my time hunting down parts. A lot was going on. I offered the bolts to Richard Lage, but he hesitated and Tom, AKA VegasSMG and I had become friends and in talking about it one day he said he wanted to handle the distribution. He said he would get the parts made if he couldn't find them. I assembled and test fired every bolt in the second run of the Gen-2 bolts then shipped them to Tom in crates for distribution. By the next run I had taken a trip to Tom's home and showed him how to assemble and QC the bolts and fit them in out of spec uppers. He took my wife and I all over the desert during that time. It was an amazing time, he was a great guy and we became great friends. He loved chatting with people about the bolts and helping people troubleshoot. He did that until his health declined and Practical Solutions took over the sales.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Interesting post. Thanks for the pictures. The 1.5 looks very similar to the early original cast M11/9 bolts. No frills.

 

[cajun 22]

As always, thank you CF for your contributions to this site and the platform.

I have since moved on from the platform but enjoyed the tungsten ride while it lasted. The new owner is very pleased with the Gen 2 and the A1 bolts. Even happier that he purchased both on them when he acquired the M11.

Again, it's good to see you here.

 

[sigstroker]

I guess it makes sense about the lack of steel bolts. It's like finding new parts for Edsels. They've been out of production since the 80's.

 

[Gaujo]

Here you go Gaujo.

Thank you, it's good to have you back!

View attachment 39553

So is the 1 5 a chunk of tungsten on the back of a steel bolt? Where was that NUTS shoot?

 

[chili17]

did 1 or 2 NUTS in Dallas and 4 to 5 in Idaho. First or second NUTS in Idaho is what gave Tom the idea to move there.

 

[GunsCarsPlanes]

It's exciting to see progress on this matter, regardless of 380 vs 9!

While I'm not an expert on the specific intricacies of each material, I personally don't have a preference between tungsten, copper tungsten alloy, or steel. My primary objective is a slow fire bolt, regardless of the material used. However, I'm curious if there are any significant differences between steel and tungsten that make the latter more desirable.

I have a Lage 11k upper on order, those uppers come with a slow fire bolt so I'm guessing Lage has a supply of steel bolts they convert to slow fire that are shipped with the uppers?

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

It's exciting to see progress on this matter, regardless of 380 vs 9!

While I'm not an expert on the specific intricacies of each material, I personally don't have a preference between tungsten, copper tungsten alloy, or steel. My primary objective is a slow fire bolt, regardless of the material used. However, I'm curious if there are any significant differences between steel and tungsten that make the latter more desirable.

I have a Lage 11k upper on order, those uppers come with a slow fire bolt so I'm guessing Lage has a supply of steel bolts they convert to slow fire that are shipped with the uppers?

The LAGE bolts are configured for a slower rate of fire but only work in the appropriate LAGE uppers. They have a weighted bar on the top that fits in the larger upper receivers. I admittedly dont know much about the LAGE uppers or the different models, but I do know they use a standard factory style bolt with a heavy steel bar attached to the top of the bolt in at least some of the models I have seen.

the LAGE bolt cannot be installed in a normal factory M11/9 upper to achieve a slower rate of fire, it only works with the whole LAGE upper receiver system. The weighted slow fire bolts in question in this thread are meant to be installed in a standard factory spec upper in place of the OEM bolt assembly and lower the rate of fire significantly. It is the ability to convert the factory gun with a normal upper to a slower rate of fire that makes these bolts very desirable, as nobody is currently making anything like this and there is a high demand for it.

 

[ktk120]

Yes correct. These tungsten or hybrid bolts drop into any upper that takes an OEM bolt. Steel is not heavy enough and that's why the rate of fire is so fast. If its the exact same size and dimension bolt it can only be slowed by adding or making it from elements that are heavier. That's why tungsten was used.

Lage is a completely proprietary system that lives inside the lage upper. It has steel and has a longer travel cycle on some uppers to achieve the slower rate of fire

 

[GunsCarsPlanes]

...

That summed it up perfectly

Steel is not heavy enough and that's why the rate of fire is so fast......longer travel cycle on some uppers to achieve the slower rate of fire

That's pretty neat how they approach the issue in different ways, add some weight and longer travel vs heavier metal. Fascinating