MAC factory subsonic ammo

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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An original full box of powder springs reloaded Remington green box 9mm subsonic ammo. The bullets look odd, longer and rounder than the usual 9mm. Kinda reminds me of some old Interarms Israeli SMG stuff I’ve got. I find it odd that they used 130gr for their subsonic M11 .380 ammo, and then only used 130gr for their 9mm as well… surprised they didn’t go with something 147gr or heavier for the 9mm. IIRC Uzi brand 9mm subsonic was 150gr. 130gr seems a bit light for a 9mm subsonic round. The 130gr 380 was a higher pressure 380 round, but it was probably very quiet at 130. Not sure how this 9mm would stack up to modern subsonic stuff at 130gr.

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MitchWerbellsGhost87

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Interesting how it’s a Winchester-Western (W-W) head stamp but a Remington box.
Yeah, good eye. I’m thinking they probably used whatever boxes/ammo they had around for these. Someone else may have ended up with a Winchester white box with a MAC sticker on it full of Remington-UMC head stamps. These were reloads sold by MAC. It is definitely not a factory loaded Winchester cartridge, I’ve never seen this bullet shape/size in any other 9mm round. Another poster commented that it is probably a 38 super bullet, and it appears he is correct
 
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Slowmo

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Damn, you are 100% correct, it does indeed appear to be a .38 super bullet. I was thinking it has a similar shape to a .380 bullet (rounder and less conical than 9mm)

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.38 Super is just juiced-up .38 ACP. That rounded bullet profile is typical of ACP rounds, such as .25 ACP, .32 ACP, .380 ACP, .38 ACP/.38 Super, .45 ACP, etc. They all have a similar look in my opinion.

Edit to add: To clarify, I’m talking about how they were originally offered as FMJ loadings. The bullet shape has varied over time and obviously each could be loaded with a hollow point, SWC, etc.

Also, 130gr was the typical bullet weight for both .38 ACP and .38 Super.
 
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brenbuilds

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That is definitely a .38 super projectile. SuperVel had released "Hush Puppy" sub-sonic 9mm ammo around 1967 that used a 158gr projectile, but the 147gr. arrived much later I believe.
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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Looks like MAC used the same .355 130 gr bullet for their 9mm and 380 ammo.
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Yes that’s what I was assuming as well. They used the same bullet for both calibers. I feel like it was probably more effective in the .380 caliber, though I do know that their .380 was +P so it likely required the heavier projectile to remain subsonic and achieve the volume they were looking for. I have never seen any other .380 available that’s over 95gr. I imagine it was a very quiet round. That said, I don’t think the 130gr bullet in the +P 9mm cartridge would perform as quietly as it does in the .380 or as quietly as the newer heavier subsonic stuff that’s 147gr and up.

Thank you to everyone who has replied so far, I am not very knowledgeable about reloading or ammunition in general, beyond the basics, so you guys have already solved a few mysteries for me in regards to this ammo. I also was not even aware of the existence of a .38 ACP round, I had of course known of .38 super, but I had never heard of the .38 ACP round before.
 

Slowmo

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For what it’s worth, a true .38 Super projectile is actually .356” rather than the .355” of 9mm, .380 ACP, etc. or the .357-.358” commonly used in revolver rounds such as .38 Special, .357 magnum, etc.
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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For what it’s worth, a true .38 Super projectile is actually .356” rather than the .355” of 9mm, .380 ACP, etc. or the .357-.358” commonly used in revolver rounds such as .38 Special, .357 magnum, etc.

Does the thousandth of an inch actually have any real effect on ballistics?
 

ferndog1

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There is some interesting history about MAC developing subsonic ammo in the MAC MAN book.

Back in the 1970s 9mm wasn't real common in the U.S., 147 grain bullets didn't exist.
I remember a friend bought a 9mm S&W Model 39, in 1970 he had a hard time finding ammo for it.
Back then, revolvers in .357 and .44 magnum were very popular, thanks in part to Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry.
Semi-auto pistols in general were uncommon, most PDs carried revolvers.
 

Slowmo

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There is some interesting history about MAC developing subsonic ammo in the MAC MAN book.

Back in the 1970s 9mm wasn't real common in the U.S., 147 grain bullets didn't exist.
I remember a friend bought a 9mm S&W Model 39, in 1970 he had a hard time finding ammo for it.
Back then, revolvers in .357 and .44 magnum were very popular, thanks in part to Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry.
Semi-auto pistols in general were uncommon, most PDs carried revolvers.
I wanna say the FBI adopted the .38 Special 158gr LSWCHP in the early 70s and used it until the late 80s when they went to a 147gr 9mm load.
 
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MitchWerbellsGhost87

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There is some interesting history about MAC developing subsonic ammo in the MAC MAN book.

Back in the 1970s 9mm wasn't real common in the U.S., 147 grain bullets didn't exist.
I remember a friend bought a 9mm S&W Model 39, in 1970 he had a hard time finding ammo for it.
Back then, revolvers in .357 and .44 magnum were very popular, thanks in part to Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry.
Semi-auto pistols in general were uncommon, most PDs carried revolvers.
Yeah departments were still using .38 revolvers into the 90s. The officers that responded to the north Hollywood bank robbery were all armed with SW 38 revolvers. I’m sure the 130gr subsonic was the heaviest stuff out there at the time when MAC came up with it. The concept of subsonic 9mm ammo wasn’t quite as mainstream as it is now. Even in the current market where suppressors are king, it’s still difficult to find FMJ 147gr, seems to me that JHP is much more common. I do know that at some point in the 80s, action arms was selling a 150gr subsonic 9mm round under their UZI branding, stuff is probably quiet. I think it had blue tips.
 

Jack007

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action arms was selling a 150gr subsonic 9mm round under their UZI branding
Actually it's 158gr....I still have a few cases in storage. Best stuff ever! It cycles my MACs and all size Uzis and is VERY quiet. They sold it under the Uzi name and later under the Samson brand. Both blue tipped. I have both and they're identical right down to the headstamps.
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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Actually it's 158gr....I still have a few cases in storage. Best stuff ever! It cycles my MACs and all size Uzis and is VERY quiet. They sold it under the Uzi name and later under the Samson brand. Both blue tipped. I have both and they're identical right down to the headstamps.
Yep you’re right I knew it was heavy I remember now it is indeed 158gr and yes it has blue tips, the standard 9mm high velocity +P carbine/SMG stuff has black tips. I’ve got a couple boxes of 9 with black tips and some 45 but the 45 doesn’t have the black tips. I’ve been looking for a box of that subsonic for the collection. I gotta search and try to find a whole damn case of the stuff, that “action ammo” UZI branding was good stuff. It was SAMSON ammo I believe. Same exact stuff, different box. I have a few of the action ammo brochures and Samson brochures I’ll have to post some scans.
 

Jack007

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the standard 9mm high velocity +P carbine/SMG stuff has black tips.
Well, actually they have brown tips. The first batch that came in had black tips. Customs/ATF threw a fit. The armor piercing ban had everyone's attention. After Action Arms showed that it was indeed just standard lead FMJ, they were approved. Needless to say, ATF "suggested" they not use black tips, so they switched to brown after that. I still have a case of the black tip. I've shot a bunch of the brown tip and yes, it's hotter but not what I'd consider +P+ by today's standards. The Samson boxes aren't nearly as fancy as the Uzi ones. I got my Samson cases right as Action Arms was closing up shop...along with a ton of 32rd mags in the blue and white boxes, slings, and assorted accessories. Don't know why other than the whole AWB had me spooked, maybe? So long ago....
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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Well, actually they have brown tips. The first batch that came in had black tips. Customs/ATF threw a fit. The armor piercing ban had everyone's attention. After Action Arms showed that it was indeed just standard lead FMJ, they were approved. Needless to say, ATF "suggested" they not use black tips, so they switched to brown after that. I still have a case of the black tip. I've shot a bunch of the brown tip and yes, it's hotter but not what I'd consider +P+ by today's standards. The Samson boxes aren't nearly as fancy as the Uzi ones. I got my Samson cases right as Action Arms was closing up shop...along with a ton of 32rd mags in the blue and white boxes, slings, and assorted accessories. Don't know why other than the whole AWB had me spooked, maybe? So long ago....
Glad to know the black tips are less common, now I know not to fire them. They sure are nice looking bullets. I’ve never seen the brown tipped stuff.
 

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