I loaded 158 grain SWC in 9mm cases and it works ... KIND OF NOT GREAT

[Dirk Hawthorne]

I found published load data for 9mm luger 158 lead RN in the Lyman 44th edition (1967) loading manual.

So I loaded up some 158 gr LSWC.

I used Unique powder. I tried to get them to be just shy of subsonic, but I distinctly heard a supersonic crackle, and they chronographed out to 1116 fps ave. So the next batch I will back down the charge weight some. I think my batch of Unique is too dry, the velocities I get are always high.

The SWC bullets feed into the UZI barrel without impinging on the rifling. Just slide right in and out, with the case mouth head-spacing as per normal.

They're sized to 0.358" but I don't GAF. They're lead. (Ever notice how people always say, "Lead Semi Wad Cutter"? What else would they be if not lead? Is there a jacketed SWC?)

I use as much of a taper crimp as I can without burying the case mouth in the lead. You need the case mouth exposed a little for head-spacing. In the picture, the crimp looks funny, but it's there.

They shoot GREAT. At 25 yards I was holding 3 inch groups with ease, which is about as good as I can shoot an open-bolt SMG from an informal rest. And using a dot sight instead of a scope.

HERE IS SOMETHING YOU MIGHT NOT KNOW - a 10" barrel will add about 50 to 100 fps of velocity to a pistol round, compared to a 5" barrel, depending on the type of powder being used. So don't be surprised if you hear a little supersonic crackle from your factory 147 grain bullets. The sound barrier is around 1,070 fps and your 10" barrel can easily get 1,020 fps listed loads (like CCI/Speer) up that high.

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

Note how the bullet is seated so that the crimp is on the cylindrical part of the bullet, as opposed to the indent for the roll crimp.

That's important for a rimless round that head-spaces on the case mouth.

 

[Slowmo]

What was your COL?

And I have actually seen jacketed SWCs.

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

You've seen jacketed SWC or plated?

The COL is 1.139"

I got the bullets from Mastercast in Enon Valley PA. Nice guy, good prices. (No, it's not me, no connection with the vendor.)

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

NOTE - I just did this experiment because I have found that SWC bullets are exceptionally accurate in most guns for some unknown reason. If you shoot 44 mag or 357 mag, you will find that you can hardly do better from an accuracy standpoint.

I would be willing to bet money that a 158 gr SWC will shoot better from an UZI than a RN 158, provided that you can get your UZI to feed SWCs.

I have a Bowers suppressor that throws bullets everywhere on my UZI. It shot great on my MAC10, but there is some mysterious problem on the UZI.

So I decided to try 158 gr SWCs to see if that would damp out whatever weird vibration is goofing up the Bowers. I actually worked, I got nice groups with the can on the gun, just some vertical stringing because I was getting tired and shooting from an impromptu rest (my hand grabbing the frame of the shooting lane.)

I think that problem with the Bowers is that I have an UZI nut mount system, and while the barrel feels very tight in the trunnion, barrels do vibrate like a tuning fork when fired. Although I really like the barrel nut mount, I think that direct-to-barrel mount like a tri-lug would be better.

I was thinking about tightly shimming the barrel in the trunnion somehow to see if that helps with the accuracy problem.

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

Note also - I have barrels for my UZI that are throated and feed anything I put in it.

This particular SWC bullet will feed into a mil-spec UZI barrel in the usual semi-lame manner that UZIs feed FP bullets, but you're going to ding up the nose of the bullet if it grabs on the little flat ring at the end of the barrel. Which will affect accuracy. Dented bullets don't fly good.

 

[Slowmo]

You've seen jacketed SWC or plated?

The COL is 1.139"

I got the bullets from Mastercast in Enon Valley PA. Nice guy, good prices. (No, it's not me, no connection with the vendor.)

Jacketed

 

[delta-10]

So how much Unique are you using? I have a ton of 158 grain .358" Lead Semi-Wadcutter from when I was mainly reloading. 38 Special. Unique was what I used. Dirty but it works.

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

So how much Unique are you using? I have a ton of 158 grain .358" Lead Semi-Wadcutter from when I was mainly reloading. 38 Special. Unique was what I used. Dirty but it works.

Look within yourself and also this manual for the answers you seek to the mysteries of life:

Lyman Reloading Handbook --- 44th Edition --- 1967 - PDFCOFFEE.COM

a great manual for any reloaderFull description...

pdfcoffee.com

 

[chili17]

Yes, there are jacketed SWC, been around forever. SWC generally shoot well because of the greater bearing surface which is more consistent than bullets with taper ogives at handgun velocities.

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

******* UPDATE ******

I RAN INTO A BIT OF A SNAG

For a recap - I have three barrels-

an IMI stock barrel
a BWE barrel with a slightly larger throat than mil spec
a US Barrel Shrouds barrel with a giant throat

I made another batch of these rounds with slightly less gunpowder and they chronographed at around 980 fps.

Yesterday I shot about 100 of them in the two barrels that feed them well.

1. They shoot very accurately subsonic. They are quiet AF thru my Bowers CAC9, probably the quietest ammo I've ever shot.

2. They will not feed in the IMI barrel at all. They feed great in the other two barrels and do not impinge on the rifling.

3. The US Barrel Shrouds barrel got real crusty in the chamber - literally a ring of crust. There is a picture of the US Barrel Shrouds barrel, showing its huge chamber. It's pretty clean in the picture, but there is some remnants of the ring of soot crust, about 2/3rds of the way up the chamber area.

The bullets started hanging up really hard on the ring of crust. The flat cylinder at the nose of the bullet really stuck on the crust and hanging up the round without being fully seated in the chamber.

So the cases started getting pregnant and one finally BLEW UP. It did not hurt the gun but it was NOT PLEASANT.

4. SO I'M GOING TO SAY THAT THIS A FLAW WITH USING THIS TYPE OF BULLET IN AN OPEN BOLT GUN. A DIRTY CHAMBER COULD MEAN KABOOM.

5. I do think that the longer bullet shoots really good, and the reduced powder charge seems to quiet the noise, so I'm going to find a source for 158 grain lead round nose bullets. Or something to that effect. TO BE CONTINUED....

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

To summarize, I think that the three big problems here were:

A.) The gigantic chamber of this barrel, which doesn't really support the round all that well. Probably giving up 1/8" of support at the rear of the case.

B.) The flat area on the front of the bullet probably hung up the round a good 1/8" sooner than a RN bullet would have hung up.

and

C.) It's an open bolt gun that's going to fire a round that's not 100% inserted into the chamber.

If you add A and B, I had about 1/4" of case that unsupported, compared to a normal cartridge hanging up on fouling in a normal barrel. That's plenty for a kaboom.

Sooooo.... going forward, I think I'm going to:

a.) Not use the US Barrel Shrouds barrel again. It's not suitable for an open bolt gun with a fixed firing pin. Not enough chamber support if a round hangs up.

b.) Not use SWC bullets in a open bolt gun with a fixed firing pin. Not slippery enough. The SWC really grabbed that fouling.

c.) Not go 400+ rounds without scrubbing the chamber a little on an open bolt gun with a fixed firing pin.

Also, I'm kind of sick of how sooty that Alliant powders are. It's great powder but it really is dirty.

 

[Slowmo]

Maybe a combination of lead and lube build up in the chamber. You could try coated or plated 158gr LSWC. There are also various 9mm RN bullets out there in the 160-165gr range.

ETA: We posted at about the same time. Responsive to your last post, nothing gets a gun gunked up as fast as lubed lead bullets in my experience. Coating or plating might change your results.

 

[slimshady]

Back in the day when I was shooting IPSC I had forgotten me and my friends were going to shoot that weekend and only remembered Friday after work when everything was closed and one called me. I was shooting my stock Steyr GB 9mm and had maybe 20-some reloads left. No suitable bullets to load up either. I did have a container full of Lee tumble lube lead SWC 158 grain .357 bullets leftover from my last .357 loading session. Made up a dummy, wonder of wonders it fed and chambered fine! Looked over several loading manuals and made an informed guess as to what would work for a load and test fired them out the back door. No signs of too much pressure and they fed and cycled. Accurate powder I think.

Oh well, better to try and fail than stand on the sidelines, if nothing else it would be good malfunction clearance practice! loaded up about 150 IIRC, and off we went the next morning. First stage was a bunch of round steel plates on the ground, knock them off their stands. Timer goes off, I draw and not expecting much accuracy wise and knowing they would probably fail to feed I just casually pointed the gun without really aiming and fired, expecting to miss and maybe clear a misfeed. Plate fell over, gun was ready for the second shot. This threw my timing off, but I quickly recovered and cleared the stage by simply pointing it at each plate and pulling the trigger, one round each. Later stages on cardboard I did pretty well accuracy wise with actual aiming and never had one failure to feed or cycle. Came in middle of the pack but the ammo did perform.

Of course, cleanup afterward was a chore. The Steyr uses a fixed bbl with 2 gas ports in it and the bbl bushing is a gas chamber/cylinder that fits over it. When fired, the gas fills this area and pushes the slide forward, delaying opening until pressures have dropped. Lead streaks were soldered to the bbl exterior, but surprisingly the bore was clean. Polygonal rifling, not supposed to work well with lead, but apparently a couple thou oversize works miracles. Fired maybe 70-80 rds total, no buildup inside the bbl or chamber, just the molten stuff blown through the gas ports. Also using the liquid alox lee lube, dries on it like a soft varnish almost, not waxy like most lubes.

Probably not a good idea in OB (or gas op) guns but I would think some powder coated lead SWC 9mm loads might run well in a conventional pistol. Most of my 9mms seem to be a bit more accurate with the heavier bullets.

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

Back in the day when I was shooting IPSC I had forgotten me and my friends were going to shoot that weekend and only remembered Friday after work when

Probably not a good idea in OB (or gas op) guns but I would think some powder coated lead SWC 9mm loads might run well in a conventional pistol. Most of my 9mms seem to be a bit more accurate with the heavier bullets.

I don't see any reason to not use SWCs in 9mm handguns. Unless the front part of the bullet impinges on the rifling and pushes the pressure up.

As long as they feed well, what is the downside?

The problem I had was a combination of huge chamber, sooty powder, and fixed firing pin. You won't have those three things in a handgun.

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

Maybe a combination of lead and lube build up in the chamber. You could try coated or plated 158gr LSWC. There are also various 9mm RN bullets out there in the 160-165gr range.

ETA: We posted at about the same time. Responsive to your last post, nothing gets a gun gunked up as fast as lubed lead bullets in my experience. Coating or plating might change your results.

Alliant Unique powder is great because it works well in EVERYTHING. But it is very sooty and will definitely form a hard crust of fouling, like on your feed ramp.

It's irrelevant at this point, because you cannot find it for sale anywhere since Alliant started their military contracts. I'm switching to Winchester powder.

I think that the US Barrel Shrouds barrel, with it's huge loose chamber, was allowing gas blow-by that caused the soot ring to form in the chamber. I say that because I shot 100s of similar handloads in the BWE barrel and no fouling ring formed.

I think the thing to do is - use 158 gr round nose lead bullets, because they are much less likely to grab and stick on fouling.

Also, I think a dirty chamber is a hazard for ANY open bolt gun with a fixed firing pin. Be a good idea to brush them out once in a while.

There is a really good vendor for lead bullets called "Mastercast" in Pennsylvania who sells RN 158 grain bullets and I will get some and report back.

It's a shame that the US Barrel Shrouds barrel is so extreme, because widening the throat on UZI barrels can absolutely be done without compromising chamber support, and it REALLY helps feeding.

 

[Slowmo]

Also, I think a dirty chamber is a hazard for ANY open bolt gun with a fixed firing pin. Be a good idea to brush them out once in a while.

There is a really good vendor for lead bullets called "Mastercast" in Pennsylvania who sells RN 158 grain bullets and I will get some and report back.

I tend to agree, which is why I don’t know why you’d buy lubed cast bullets given the available alternatives. There is nothing wrong with lubed cast bullets, but there isn’t really any argument that they are dirtier than just about all the alternatives. That crap gets blown back into the chamber and receiver when fired, especially on a blowback (a tapered cartridge/chamber probably doesn’t help the matter). Mastercast is fine, but nothing special. Unless you’re getting an unbeatable deal, just buy some coated or plated lead.

Examples:
SWC
RN

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

well, the lubed mastercast 158gr RNL bullets are $77 vs $98.50.

that's 28% cheaper.

Hard Cast Bullets (1/1/24)

The fouling that I experienced was classic Unique powder crust. I didn't observe anything that would suggest it was a lube problem. I could be wrong, of course.