how to identify a Keosayian Collection Colt Executive gun from the 1990s pre-A4

secondofangle

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I just learned this from a tip on another thread yesterday and confirmed it by inspecting my own guns.

Sometime after 1986, the forging changed and ever so slightly altered the area under the front push pin.

The guns that are blacker than 1986 even though not as black as A4s, and with SN 8170xxx - some of them have 2 manufacture dates at colt, one pre-86 and a second sometime in the 1990s.

See pics for how pre-86 grey forgings were radiused, and 1990s black guns (though will all other pre-86 correct markings), have a more angled forging. Both have standard A2 LRE reinforcements.

It's a subtle distinction, but if you see it, you can definitely recognized it.

Another tell-tale sign is that they boogered up the anodizing with the insertion of the roll pin for the mag catch at the rear, and the night-time remakes didn't have a dab of paint applied.
 

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sweersa

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Very interesting. I've noticed the variation around the front pin, but assumed (wrongly) it was due to different manufacturers, didn't realize Colts had this within the A2 line.

Years ago, elsewhere, I've heard some '90s M16s were somehow added to the registry as transferable, and remain so presently. Not sure if that is related to this observation.
 

secondofangle

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Here is a curious specimen of Keosayian


Not only does it have post 1989 restructuring manufacturer markings (COLTS MFG CO INC) it is an A2 lower receiver, and all of the early guns were on A1 receivers

It is a black anodizing
It has three roll pins holding in the magazine will adapter which is period specific - meaning 1980s and 90s
I can’t tell by the pictures, but it looks like the castle nut was not staked, which is something curious about John’s remake that they didn’t bother to stake the castle nuts
The polymer sliding stock is period specific for late 80s through the 1990s

But here’s the kicker: the serial number is 15, XYZ
That is an extremely late serial number.
My transferable colt SMG as a serial number less than 2000

So I’m not sure what the heck’s going out with this gun but it’s definitely one of John Keosayian’s remakes
 

secondofangle

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Here is the one that just sold on gun broker that is an A2 receiver, Colt gray, serial number ~5000, three roll pins for the magazine adapter

IMG_7688.jpeg
 

GreaseGunner

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Maybe I’m late to the party or never got into the deep higher achy of Colt M16’s, but what is with the John K Colt M16 guns? Was he taking old serial numbers and putting them on newer receivers? I never could find a straight answer on what it was with the “John K Colt collection” as it seemed like most threads about these guns went into the weeds quickly.
 

ScottinTexas

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Search this Forum. If you really want to understand what appears to have happened, unless it's been wiped - it's discussed on this Forum.

Unfortunately you really need to dedicate some time to be able to see what appears to have transpired and how, otherwise you won't believe it.
 

clc3251

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When I bought my M16A1 in 1998 for the pricey sum of $3,000, I got a Colt factory letter on it and found out it left Colt in 1995 and went to Keosayian. I had no clue who he was but was surprised that Colt held on to transferrables for that long. My gun is a straight up A1 with a 9,489,xxx serial number. No clue why some guns were updated to A2 specs and mine wasn't. It went from Keosayian to Dennis Todd to the individual that I bought it from. We actually met at Dennis's place to complete the transfer. The form 4 cleared in 19 days which was unheard of at the time. Transfers were taking over a year on average.
 

GreaseGunner

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I’ll do some digging on here. Thanks and not much shocks me anymore with this stuff.
 

GreaseGunner

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Did some reading last night. Why am I not shocked things like that happened? I wonder in time how many more will do similar things given the 80% lowers and the technology to duplicate logos and such…here’s an example of that, friend of mine sent me one he did that he’s doing.

Bought the stencil online for $20 and used a 9v battery and some household items to deep etch the lower….colt 9mm SMG lower (minus the magwell insert holes) for less that $200…his is going to be an SBR, but it is a great example of what can be done with todays technology.

Whose to say that serial numbers won’t migrate from other guns in time. I do wonder at what point people will get wrapped up for “updating” or having “updated” M16 lowers?
 

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Sebastian

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Did some reading last night. Why am I not shocked things like that happened? I wonder in time how many more will do similar things given the 80% lowers and the technology to duplicate logos and such…here’s an example of that, friend of mine sent me one he did that he’s doing.

Bought the stencil online for $20 and used a 9v battery and some household items to deep etch the lower….colt 9mm SMG lower (minus the magwell insert holes) for less that $200…his is going to be an SBR, but it is a great example of what can be done with todays technology.

Whose to say that serial numbers won’t migrate from other guns in time. I do wonder at what point people will get wrapped up for “updating” or having “updated” M16 lowers?
Where did you buy the stencil from?
Looks great.
 

ScottinTexas

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Whose to say that serial numbers won’t migrate from other guns in time. I do wonder at what point people will get wrapped up for “updating” or having “updated” M16 lowers?
I suppose that any individual - licensed or not - could theoretically do what it appears Keosayian did with his Colt connection.

If one has so much as a legit list on paper of once-registered machine guns that were lost/destroyed/never sold or transferred, then the Keyosayian Colt exercise shows that if the repop is close enough, and the SN matches BATF records, then you have a license to print money.

How many such lists / inventories are out there? Probably a handful or zero; it's not like insiders aren't aware of this. But there's no way to know.

The Keyosayian effort, if it is what most of us think - is so unique that it is unlikely to be reproduced anywhere else. He was the D.B. Cooper of the NFA world. That nobody who actually did this work or were involved in it at a worker bee level have not emerged is very interesting to me; they were either paid VERY well, or fear consequences - or both. Even the GoodFellas eventually talked.
 

slimshady

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The dogfight guy does good work. Friend of mine finally has the Gen u wine Mattel M16 marked rifle he swore he saw in Vietnam.
 

secondofangle

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the basic story is Keosayian was well connected at Colt and into machine guns. Had access to anything he wanted. Supposedly lent them millions to avert bankrupcy at some point and had big clout there.

Used legit registered SNs. If the gun no longer existed (destroyed, demo'd, damaged, lost, whatever), he'd remake a new one.

If he wanted the latest roll marks, even if they didn't exist in 1986, e.g., NeoGeo's "M4 Commando Enhanced", he destroyed an old receiver, reused the old SN on a new receiver with different roll marks.

They made mistakes. After the 1989 restructuring, "they" (i.e., him and his nightime [or were they broad daylight?] helpers) put the COLTS MFG CO INC rollmarks on the gun, proving it was manufactured after 1986. I almost bought one with those rollmarks and "M4 CARBINE" from Spiwak when the collection started moving in about 2016. Figured it out and shied away, because before all this came to light, there was a pall of paranoia about these guns, and most of the so-called gurus said stay far away, they're contraband and so on.

When A2 receiver forgings were exhausted in the early 00's, they started using A4s, leaving another telltale sign of a post-1986 manufacture. Other telltale signs are Colt black anodizing; unstaked castle nuts (I have a 9mm DOE like this from a PA dealer Targetmaster); no dabs of paint on the bolt release roll pin hole; no armorer marks on the right front of the upper receiver; and a "NIB" gun in a Colt box with no labels, put in a plastic bag with the blue lettering, but with a post-1986 date on the bag, manuals in the box with post-1986 dates, front sight post forgings with post-1986 dates, the list goes on. He assembled "NIB" guns with whatever was on hand, and obviously by 2006 or so, earlier printings and forgings were scarce. One dude tells of going into his house to buy a gun and him sitting there and giggling, taking a "new" box from a stack and putting the gun and accessories in there for they buyer. It's said he had many hundreds of Colts, as well as a stunning collection of other MGs.

FOIA requests show two manufacture dates for these "remake" guns. BATFE used to allow this in 1990s and early 00's; folks were sending in Olympic lowers regularly to have them "repaired" basically meaning new receiver. After some time, BATFE put the Kibosh on this.

He had ties to PA dealers like CCA and TM. Spiwak got some guns too. Felon Vaughn Kelerchian of autoweapons was his nephew. THat explans a lot too. Some have called it the "Armenian MG Mafia" (Keosayian and Kelerchian are Armenian names.)

Apparently he got some kind of rapidly progressive dementia diagnosed about 10 years ago, and the collection - which was LEGION - began being disbursed/liquidated to the dealers, mostly in PA as far as I can tell, but they have shown up EVERYWHERE.

I have 4 Colt MGs. I'm pretty much sure they're all Keosayian guns even though all but 1 I think were not remakes. Auto marked A2 is too black and upper is 1999 front sight post forging, and I have a FOIA; I have an A2 carbine that's all original, but from PA dealer, so suspected to be one of his, though not a remake; I have a POUSG A2 -and I'm pretty sure these are all pre-86 guns. Finally 9mm DOE, SN ~HT00015xy that may be a remake, or at least an after-hours assembly, because the castle nut is not staked. These are the horses I have in this race, so to speak, and why I'm so interested in this topic.
 

clc3251

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Very interesting and informative write up. My M-16 A1 is a confirmed gun from him and I bought it in 1998 secondhand from the original buyer who got it from Dennis Todd after it left Colt in 1995. So either my gun had been sitting there since 86 or they still had some A1 forgings and maybe switched to the A2 and A4 after each forging ran out? I remember when Olympic was replacing receivers and the problem they ran into is they were replacing receivers that were converted by other manufacturers. Also, Ruger would replace a transferable, AC 556 receiver for quite a while, But if I remember correctly, they were actually replacing the receivers with transferable's that they still had in stock. Someone more knowledgeable on AC556s can chime in on that. But once again, thank you for the write up.
 

GreaseGunner

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Really makes you question the pedigree of Colt M16’s unless you can track it back to original owners or sit there and pick apart every detail of A1, A2, A4 lowers (admittedly I can NOT) good information to have stored in the back of the mind on things for sure!!
 

ScottinTexas

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I was in the market for an A2 ~10 years ago and after I saw all of these proudly priced and clearly suspicious guns emerging from Pennsylvania dealers I opted out.
That the BATF has not yet stepped in (at least to our collective knowledge) is to me a surprise; I expected in during Biden's term. I'd love to know what sort of internal debates have occurred.
In any case, there's absolutely no guarantee that at some point the Feds won't take action and that was enough for me to decide these weren't for me.
 

GreaseGunner

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My guess is that IF the ATF were to make a move on said suspect guns, that they would follow the precedent that was set with the Stemple M60’s and freeze them in place….allow the owners to keep them, but they couldn’t be sold off and transferred as transferable MG’s anymore, basically rendering them worthless as the great “investments” people think they are.
 

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