Velocity VMAC-45 jamming with hollow points

[Slowmo]

I prefer .45ACP precisely because it expands most out of all the common pistol calibers and modern versions meet FBI penetration standards. Then again, .45 FMJ is still pretty wide but the problem with 9mm before was either insufficient penetration or insufficient wound size, while modern 9mm can do both. My logic, though, is the same tech that advanced 9mm also advanced .45 and .45ACP already starts out wider. Winchester Ranger T expands to a full 1”, which is why I use it as my Para Ordnance 1911 carry load. But if it doesn’t work with a MAC, then I’ll want some other kind of defensive oriented load.

I don’t think there is a right answer. I included a link to a posted copy of the memo. As I mentioned, it’s about 10 years old now, so I don’t know how much still holds true. I generally found it persuasive though, which is part of why I favor 9mm (the other and maybe more important aspect for me being weight/size). I have no doubt .45 will get the job done and still shoot it regularly.

FBI Memo

 

[Gaujo]

Anything a fmj .45 wont accomplish, two or three .45 probably will!

 

[gameragodzilla]

I don’t think there is a right answer. I included a link to a posted copy of the memo. As I mentioned, it’s about 10 years old now, so I don’t know how much still holds true. I generally found it persuasive though, which is part of why I favor 9mm (the other and maybe more important aspect for me being weight/size). I have no doubt .45 will get the job done and still shoot it regularly.

FBI Memo

I've often been a bit skeptical given the same FBI tests ammo based on how well they expand, wanting at least 1.5 times expansion for their duty loads. So if expansion matters, that means .45ACP is mathematically superior to 9mm as it makes a 60% larger wound channel than 9mm. Even Dr. Martin Fackler (who invented modern ballistics) says that (and I even did the math and found his conclusion correct). Of course, that's all based on expansion and hollow points actually getting you something. If it doesn't, then hollow points are useless and 5.7x28mm is the best instead (and the new PSA X5.7 seems to be that pistol grip PCC in that cartridge that I'd like).

Anything a fmj .45 wont accomplish, two or three .45 probably will!

True, but if I can get hollow points, might as well. heh

Got my gun from the FFL but still waiting for my mags and ammo to arrive before I can test it myself. I do wonder how PCCs in general, especially pistol grip ones, do with hollow points. Seems like guns based off actual pistols like the Flux Raider chassis for the Sig P320 seems best. Would be nice to get one of those old school stocks that attach to the mainspring housing of a 1911 if it weren't for NFA nonsense.

 

[gameragodzilla]

Well took the gun out shooting today and blegh, didn't work. Only had one magazine with no malfunctions and even then it had a malfunction when I loaded it again to try and confirm. Ejection did seem erratic, with the rounds that chambered properly having proper ejection patterns but many having odd ones. At this point, I'm giving up unless someone can find me a hollow point .45ACP round that feeds like FMJ. I hear PowRball may be good. Still, man I wish this gun could be made functional with my carry load. It'd be perfect in every way aside from that.

I suppose I could try looking at other .45ACP PCCs. The Stribog SP45A3 seems interesting and that seems to feed hollow points from what I've seen online.

 

[Slowmo]

Well took the gun out shooting today and blegh, didn't work. Only had one magazine with no malfunctions and even then it had a malfunction when I loaded it again to try and confirm. Ejection did seem erratic, with the rounds that chambered properly having proper ejection patterns but many having odd ones. At this point, I'm giving up unless someone can find me a hollow point .45ACP round that feeds like FMJ. I hear PowRball may be good. Still, man I wish this gun could be made functional with my carry load. It'd be perfect in every way aside from that.

I suppose I could try looking at other .45ACP PCCs. The Stribog SP45A3 seems interesting and that seems to feed hollow points from what I've seen online.

If you’re trying to keep it small, a Glock 21 with one of those chassis setups might work.

Glock chassis
Another Glock chassis

 

[gameragodzilla]

If you’re trying to keep it small, a Glock 21 with one of those chassis setups might work.

Glock chassis
Another Glock chassis

Not a fan of Glocks, honestly, but I have looked at those. If nothing else works, may look at that.

 

[gameragodzilla]

Starting to lean towards selling my VMAC-45 and getting a Stribog SP45A3 (been busy with many things) but has anyone here successfully shot any of those non-expanding .45ACP rounds in their guns? Things like the Underwood Xtreme Defender or Norma NXD rounds? Those seem like defensive loads but aren’t hollow points, but I don’t know if their bullet shape would feed reliably in a MAC-10 style gun.

 

[forindooruseonly]

TOFTT and let us know. I just use mine as a bullet hose, so I stick with the cheap FMJ reloads and bulk manufactured. I have a .380 auto pistol that doesn't like any of the hollow points I've tried to put through it, but will cycle the Underwood Defender, so maybe?

 

[gameragodzilla]

TOFTT and let us know. I just use mine as a bullet hose, so I stick with the cheap FMJ reloads and bulk manufactured. I have a .380 auto pistol that doesn't like any of the hollow points I've tried to put through it, but will cycle the Underwood Defender, so maybe?

Huh, I’ll have to try that. Right now, I saw some Federal HST for cheap, and I bought some of that to see if that’ll cycle. I notice the velocity even for the standard Winchester Ranger T is on the higher end so I wonder if that could cause the bolt to cycle a bit too quickly. Gonna try the HST first, then try some Underwood Defender.

If those don’t work, then I’m gonna sell this gun and get a Stribog.

 

[gameragodzilla]

Well, the Federal HST came in. Slow loading with the safety on seems to indicate it feeds well so hopefully that means these rounds will feed when firing. I remember getting a couple jams with the Winchester Ranger T slow loading but was hoping the full speed cycling would help. If this feeds, then I know to pair Federal HST with the VMAC-45 from now on. If not, I'll sell this gun and get the Stribog. I saw a video of someone using Federal HST in their Stribog so I know for a fact that works, and I figure being a newer design, it should feed the Winchester Ranger T as well. We'll see.

Main thing I'm wondering now is if these rounds slow feed, then that means if the rounds are presented at the top, it should be fine, but if the rounds don't get up the magazine in time to line up properly, then it could still misfeed. Hopefully the slightly lower velocity I typically see with this load and the ejecting case out of the gun don't interfere with the round rising. I'll take this shooting probably this weekend when I have time.

 

[LawBob]

Finally took my VMAC-45 to the range to shoot after having my gunsmith weld on some aftermarket rails, but the gun has a failure to feed with hollow points multiple times this range session. The gunsmith also said that he encountered the same thing when he test fired it, but he didn’t know how to get hollow points running and so didn’t want to risk anything. All the stuff he did worked fine, the brace, the red dot and the light, but I need this gun to run reliably with Winchester Ranger T since I want to make this a bag gun. My 1911 carry load is that hollow point and I want to run the same ammo in my VMAC but it doesn’t seem to work. Also tried some cheap Remington hollow points (the stuff I shot today with pics) and they also jammed. My gunsmith did also fit in an aftermarket paddle magazine release when he fired my gun, but I put in the original magazine release and still had the same issue. There also didn’t seem to be any specific magazine that worked better than the other. Both him and I only had 2 magazines function flawlessly out of the 5 we fired, but the specific 2 magazines were different between us. The ones he fired flawlessly malfunctioned for me. Both of us also experienced one stovepipe too.

So can anyone tell me how best to get this gun working with hollow points? Or point me to a MAC-10 specialist who can get it running? This is the only thing left for me to be fully satisfied with this gun.

Thanks.

When it lodges, is the bullet jammed up on the low entrance to the chamber?

If so, the round needs some vertical encouragement. Can’t say about the semi, but the m10 has a crude feed ramp than you can take a crescent wrench and “bend” toward the magazine that will start pushing the bullet upwards a hair earlier. In F/a you have to take the FCG out so you can get enough purchase on that “ramp” (it’s just a flat piece of steel)

Don’t know if the Semi has same type of feed ramp. Only bend a very little, then test. Since yours is semi you could test w live ammo, safely of course.

Ball ammo is best of course.

 

[gameragodzilla]

When it lodges, is the bullet jammed up on the low entrance to the chamber?

If so, the round needs some vertical encouragement. Can’t say about the semi, but the m10 has a crude feed ramp than you can take a crescent wrench and “bend” toward the magazine that will start pushing the bullet upwards a hair earlier. In F/a you have to take the FCG out so you can get enough purchase on that “ramp” (it’s just a flat piece of steel)

Don’t know if the Semi has same type of feed ramp. Only bend a very little, then test. Since yours is semi you could test w live ammo, safely of course.

Ball ammo is best of course.

The jam was similar to the type of jam I posted in the first page of this thread. So it hits more the top of the chamber which seems to be more of a bullet design issue. Just hoping that the HST rounds feed when I shoot them since they seem to feed fine when I slow load them by hand, which hopefully indicates that this type of bullet design feeds fine.

 

[root]

How about that hornady critical defense or critical duty ammo.
Same bullet just different weights.
It looks more like a fmj and has the HP filled with a polymere product that supposedly helps with feeding & expansion.
I have a box of the zombie stuff onthe shelf cause the box is so corny.
I've yet to try any HP in my M10

 

[gameragodzilla]

How about that hornady critical defense or critical duty ammo.
Same bullet just different weights.
It looks more like a fmj and has the HP filled with a polymere product that supposedly helps with feeding & expansion.
I have a box of the zombie stuff onthe shelf cause the box is so corny.
I've yet to try any HP in my M10

I have thought about that as well. May try that and the Underwood Xtreme Defender loads later. If you're able to try them, let me know.

 

[LawBob]

The jam was similar to the type of jam I posted in the first page of this thread. So it hits more the top of the chamber which seems to be more of a bullet design issue. Just hoping that the HST rounds feed when I shoot them since they seem to feed fine when I slow load them by hand, which hopefully indicates that this type of bullet design feeds fine.

The mag may need to sit a little higher.

How much wiggle is there in the mag, maybe try pushing mag up while you shot.

 

[gameragodzilla]

The mag may need to sit a little higher.

How much wiggle is there in the mag, maybe try pushing mag up while you shot.

The jams did occur with the original mag catch, though I have a paddle mag release now. I have thought about that too, but don’t know how to make the mag sit any higher. Will try that if the HST don’t work, though.

What brand of hollow point have you used before? Will try Hornady Critical Defense and Underwood Defender after this per other’s recommendation.

 

[LawBob]

The jams did occur with the original mag catch, though I have a paddle mag release now. I have thought about that too, but don’t know how to make the mag sit any higher. Will try that if the HST don’t work, though.

What brand of hollow point have you used before? Will try Hornady Critical Defense and Underwood Defender after this per other’s recommendation.

If there’s a little play after being inserted you can put something to build the catch up temporarily. Like metal duct tape layered

 

[gameragodzilla]

If there’s a little play after being inserted you can put something to build the catch up temporarily. Like metal duct tape layered

Huh, any tutorial on how to do that? Never heard of that fix before. Would be something to try later.

 

[Slowmo]

Huh, any tutorial on how to do that? Never heard of that fix before. Would be something to try later.

The Lage dual-catch required file fitting for me, which keeps the mags nice and high. There is a lot of variation in the mags, catches, and grips of MAC-style guns.

 

[gameragodzilla]

The Lage dual-catch required file fitting for me, which keeps the mags nice and high. There is a lot of variation in the mags, catches, and grips of MAC-style guns.

I just used the MacMachineGuns paddle lever that’s Grease Gun mag only since the VMAC was set up for those mags only as well. Wonder if being only Grease Gun compatible can cause issues.