The latest NIB M16A2 Carbine - look it over

[ScottinTexas]

I need to read these articles but this makes perfect sense and the timing appears correct.

This why all these Mr. Colt guns will forever be tainted as questionable and reproductions to true collectors. Unless you have paperwork that proves a gun was physically manufactured on the Colt production line prior to 1986 there's going to be a great probability it was one of the shopping cart reproductions that are legal but arguably not rare, not original and not deserving of a premium as a consequence.

 

[Battering ram NIB]

if the story is true and these are THOSE guns....why does that make them tainted?...they were just real guns sitting at colt.....it says nothing about re manufacturing them...doesnt say how he was able to get 1990's m4's into the registry...

in 10 years all these new A2's will be mixed in....according to the registry there were 2,000 of them....and there still is 2,000 of them....so they are the same rarity they always were....the only difference is one guy doesnt own 250 of them anymore....

plus i see some NIB M16a1's too...so it would put them into question forever also....

in 10 years what will be the difference and who will know?

and where did the article say they were reproductions or not physically manufacturer before 1986???....it doesnt say how he got 1990's m4's registered.......id say there is more to the story


that guy had a very interesting career though.....very smart, even though at the time he didnt know it....but when buying pallets of Mac's for nothing you know your eventually going to be a winner

 

[ScottinTexas]

No A2 premium over the A1 unless you have paperwork to prove it a a real A2 and not a shopping cart special.
My opinion as a potential purchaser, not a current owner already committed and therefore biased.

I think you are missing the fact that Colt made FA Guns for decades and probably thousands were tool room and test models and rejects. Every one could have been destroyed but resurrected in the 1990s via the paper trail.

Any experienced collector who is not fabulously wealthy is going to be very cautious about investing in these given the indisputable post-86 reproduction date of some examples. You can try to rationalize around this but you can't ignore the facts.

 

[root]

Then there are the letter writters.
Ya know the ones that send repeated letters to the BATFE questions things until the BATFE has had enough and declared that letter item subject to seizure and contraband.

As I said before if I was buying a gun that was 12 years newer then the cut off date I'd keep my mouth shut.
there are plenty of collectors out there that never want to see the registry opened or any gun added.
They feel it hurts the value of their gun(s)
Hell a few Orgs. want the registry closed come to mind right now.

One such Org. comes to mind as of late.
Anyone remember 41P and what that started over and about? and Who it was that brought it to us?
Bettcha that very group would like to see every last "PA COLLECTION" gun hit the shredder or evidence room.
All on the sour grapes principal.

Rich

 

[ScottinTexas]

I understand what you are saying and agree - and should probably just shut up about it.

And I probably would if the sellers/dealers would be open and honest about these instead of intimating they were more or less unbelievably rare pre1996 models set aside and discovered decades later in a broom closet at the factory.

 

[bsn]

Well interestingly enough, find part 2 of that article and everyone might have their answer where all these M-16s came from. It's all spelled out right in the interview. 2-3 people with shopping carts going through Colt in the 1990s and rummaging through their pattern room and other storage grabbing every transferable they could get their hands on in lieu of a royalty payment by Colt.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1211

 

[Battering ram NIB]

what proof would one have that their gun was part of this collection or not in 10 years?

FOIA? sounds like many never hear back

and just because they colt of every M16 doesnt mean all of them are post 86.....no one here can explain how so many ''cant exist 1990's'' m4's are in the registry....can funny business be on 40-50 guns?
sounds like your saying funny business is on hundreds of guns..

 

[ScottinTexas]

No I am not saying that.

Pay attention.

If I were going to buy one of these I would only do so if the seller could show me legit documentation that the gun in question was made by Colt pre1986.

If that can't be done then you cannot determine if it is legit or a post86 reproduction or mystery gun

Just because a gun has a pre86 receiver is not proof it was made pre86.

There's a reason why those who produced these guns in the 1990s have not been identified or claimed any ownership and short of this article there has been no published information.

Reed Knight had all the pieces, skill and connections to make this happen. If so, How many were finished and assembled in his shop? Or all these were just mint fully assembled guns, hundreds, that were put in boxes in perfect condition some with late 90s barrel dates?

If I had bought 100 Colt SP1 stripped receivers in 1976 and started selling them in 2016 as Mint in Box factory Colt SP1's with cobbled together-in-my-garage SP1 ersatz uppers in 2016 would you deem me a fraud or just hand me $3500 no questions asked?

Just my opinion and it's a free country but some of these are legit and some are frauds and at present nobody who knows is talking.

 

[Battering ram NIB]

i get it, but what documentation is there?

everyone with a M16 now needs a FOIA? and what about the ones who never get it returned?

there is just sooo many of these....i think it will forever muddy the waters on every M16

anyone w/ a barrel id can just find a pre 1990's barrel and fix that....

looked at GB today...i can point out 6-8 that are most likely from this collection....then add the ones on Spiwak and the 1 or 2 on Rubens website and youve got 10-12 guns this week alone....you have hundreds of A1's and even more A2's........might be 20% of all A2's will come out of this collection....may be 30%......(300 of the 2,000 that exist)....dont know....you will never know on most guns in 10 years where they came from...and physically most are correct

i agree on Knight..from reading the article he could do anything and was a smart businessman

 

[root]

Well the Statute of limitations is if the crime is a 10 year sentence they have 10 years to prosecute.

Soooo,,,,,,
the guys that are knowingly buying and bragging about these 1990's guns are admitting they know they are NOT G2G per the written laws of 1986 and is a typed out admission of guilt a confession if you will.

The cogs of Gov. are slow but never stop turning. Time is on their side as their prosecution clock doesn't start until they become aware of the fact that something is wrong.

So they become aware of this sometime down the road and become aware of the threads on the internet that point to people knowingly buying these items that's pretty much all they need for anything from bad to really bad happening to the owners.

BAD= anything from not being able to transfer the gun to having it cofiscated with no compensation.
REALLY BAD= Being prosecuted for knowingly possessing a postie. or worse a illegally Mfg. MG.

And we all know the BATFE gets to write law as they go, retract, and rerule at a whim.
While I would like to see more guns entered in of the MG , bragging about a dozen or so that slip in is NOT the way to do it.
At least if you want to get away with it.
And there seemed two be only two buyers out there that are bragging about it. That's going to ruin it for the rest of the buyers.

Rich

 

[Battering ram NIB]

its obvious there are dozens...it the ATF cant see that they dont know their job.......some are saying its hundreds if every one of those colt closet guns are fake and not pre 86

 

[hkg3k]

its obvious there are dozens...it the ATF cant see that they dont know their job.......

It's obvious you don't know how BATF works. All the examiners see are the transfer forms, and if those forms demonstrate validity....the examiners assume those forms are backed up by a legitimate firearm which complies with the provisions of 18 U.S.C. 922(o) and approve the transfer.

The examiners do not see -or- are aware of the actual configuration of the weapon...unless there's a situation where they may request a pic of the firearm or its markings for clarification.

BATF wasn't the wiser when those guys were cutting serial #'s off MACs and putting them on MAG58s, M60s, etc, etc...until the buyer of one of these guns was studied enough to know something wasn't right with their newly acquired "cheap" beltfed. The buyer contacted BATF, an investigation was initiated and a couple years later the culprits were indicted.

Point being, BATF had no idea the guns had morphed until someone brought it to their attention...the examiners only see the paperwork. Same with these "time-machine" Colts.

One other note...the BATF doesn't care if you bought your $$$ transferable machine gun in good faith. If they investigate and their finding is it doesn't comply with 922(o), they will confiscate it...just as with the serial # swapped MAC "beltfeds."

 

[ScottinTexas]

i get it, but what documentation is there?

everyone with a M16 now needs a FOIA? and what about the ones who never get it returned?

there is just sooo many of these....i think it will forever muddy the waters on every M16

anyone w/ a barrel id can just find a pre 1990's barrel and fix that....

looked at GB today...i can point out 6-8 that are most likely from this collection....then add the ones on Spiwak and the 1 or 2 on Rubens website and youve got 10-12 guns this week alone....you have hundreds of A1's and even more A2's........might be 20% of all A2's will come out of this collection....may be 30%......(300 of the 2,000 that exist)....dont know....you will never know on most guns in 10 years where they came from...and physically most are correct

i agree on Knight..from reading the article he could do anything and was a smart businessman

1. FOIA and the paperwork whoever first took the receivers and or SN's from Colt. There is paperwork out there. Why is it not part of the sales pitch? I guarantee you if I purchased these guns directly from Colt I would provide you some provenance and up the price. Instead: crickets.

FOIA? It won't help you before the purchase but years later, when the packet shows up in your mailbox, if the provenance stops with a Form 2 post1986, then maybe you got your answer - and maybe it's not the one you wanted to hear.

And if your gun shows a lineage from Pennsylvania you might want to be concerned.

2. Muddy the waters for every M16? No. Just for the "Super Rare" or M16A2's and or the black guns. Probably more accurately, M16A1s and older models seem to have immune. That in itself is interesting. Want to avoid the risk and uncertainty? Buy an M16A1. But yes, the later ones will be suspect by folks with the foresight to educate themselves before they buy.

So....if I may borrow an analogy; these "rare!" / M16A2 Mr. Colt guns are like a bowl of Skittles; some will be legit, and some will be reproductions....

 

[Battering ram NIB]

so everyone who buys a A2 10 years from now will request a FOIA paperwork or else every A2 may not be considered legit?

i agree i would not be happy if mine shows a form 2 post 1986.....

M16a1's are immune from the post 86, but arent immune to being re manufactured or parts guns....

there is 2 issues here......post 86 is one issue on A2's, but as far as remanufactured it would effect A1s as well as A2's.....back to a comment above talking about how are all these guns sitting around colt in new condition, that they were reworked back to mint....this issue will effect every NIB A1 also.............if they are reworked are they not just as reproduction as the A2s

my argument is in no way about the 1990's m4's......i have nothing to say positive about them......my argument is more about the NIB part of this equation....which effects A1 and A2 alike

this is where i dont think its going to matter 10 years from now because all these guns in question will be mixed in the bowl of skittles making it impossible to tell authentic/un touched from ''possible'' reworked

i will be filing a FOIA on mine....i was worried about my barrel and some other parts on my upper....i was very happy to see it all was correct

i will add something new to this endless thread....serial #'s.....in 1984 when Colt started A2 production....did they start w/ serial # 8,000,000 and 6,000,000 ?? mine is a very low serial # and i would assume this helps the case that it was made before 1986.....

most are 6,1xxx,xxx to 6,35x,xxx.....mine is 6,035,xxx..........im curious if there is any record of serial # start and end dates??......when did colt stop using the 8,000,000 and 6,000,000 #'s and move on?

 

[Battering ram NIB]

6,000,000-6,590,478 (approximate)

1983-1986

US Property marked M16A2 & US Property marked XM4 prototypes Colt's Model 720.





managed to find this on line---if its on the internet it must be real.....if correct--proves all the A2 govt.'s were made before 86 as none ive seen are even close to the max serial #

this whole conspiracy may be false accept for the M4's.........maybe someone just bought tons of M16's

i will also be calling Colt when i get a chance....get an exact year when mine was made...the on line look up doesnt work

when will this thread hit #1000?

 

[ScottinTexas]

so everyone who buys a A2 10 years from now will request a FOIA paperwork or else every A2 may not be considered legit?

i agree i would not be happy if mine shows a form 2 post 1986.....

M16a1's are immune from the post 86, but arent immune to being re manufactured or parts guns....

there is 2 issues here......post 86 is one issue on A2's, but as far as remanufactured it would effect A1s as well as A2's.....back to a comment above talking about how are all these guns sitting around colt in new condition, that they were reworked back to mint....this issue will effect every NIB A1 also.............if they are reworked are they not just as reproduction as the A2s

my argument is in no way about the 1990's m4's......i have nothing to say positive about them......my argument is more about the NIB part of this equation....which effects A1 and A2 alike

this is where i dont think its going to matter 10 years from now because all these guns in question will be mixed in the bowl of skittles making it impossible to tell authentic/un touched from ''possible'' reworked

i will be filing a FOIA on mine....i was worried about my barrel and some other parts on my upper....i was very happy to see it all was correct

i will add something new to this endless thread....serial #'s.....in 1984 when Colt started A2 production....did they start w/ serial # 8,000,000 and 6,000,000 ?? mine is a very low serial # and i would assume this helps the case that it was made before 1986.....

most are 6,1xxx,xxx to 6,35x,xxx.....mine is 6,035,xxx..........im curious if there is any record of serial # start and end dates??......when did colt stop using the 8,000,000 and 6,000,000 #'s and move on?

I have not seen any M16A1's come out of the Mr. Colt Collection - no fake boxes, 1990's owner's manuals, dark black. Until I do, I can't assume any of those were repops or remanufactured post86. That in itself is worth contemplating.

Perhaps that's not where the big money was in 1995?

You seem to have a tough time understanding this concept: if known repops are in the population of M16A2's and you can't tell the repops from the real, then many folks will avoid them altogether - or only pay what they would for a shooter M16A1.

My personal opinion is that this group will forever be questionable until the folks who "bought" them from Colt produce provenance papers. This is the last time I'm going to state this as it isn't sinking in.

One other observation from the article linked above: the guys inside have all the good, really rare stuff and a ton of it. What filters out through the Usual Suspects is stuff they don't want. Probably a lot of this stuff never enters the open market and is sold privately, quietly, tax free.

I wonder how many of some of the real correct rare items these guys have kept.

 

[Battering ram NIB]

i havent seen any normal A2's in dark black....the only ones i see are the odd ball m4's.........gb always has some of NIB A1's.....almost as many as A2 NIB's sometimes

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/586438096

http://www.davidspiwak.com/guns/new-colt-m16-a1-model-621-nib/
http://www.davidspiwak.com/guns/new-colt-m16-a1-with-m203/

any time i see a NIB A1 i figure its from the same collection....ive often seen Frank list them mixed in w/ A2's......also seen some other manufacturers...all NIB.....they dont come in the A2 boxes, but they are always listed right in the mix of the A2's from Frank and others....typically there is a couple on GB...today 1 i found......ive seen 25-50 of them NIB selling from the same guys selling A2's......i have to assume they are off the same pallet

the collection isnt just A2's


its not proven they are repops either......why cant someone just have a pallet of NIB A2's?

they seem to have endless NIB Mac's......people bought dozens......why couldnt someone have bought a pallet of A2's in 1984 seeing the writing on the wall....

if this keeps going its going to be 20% a2's will be from this collection...i suspect the # is close to 10% right now......

the only dark black a2's ive seen are the M4's or A2's with modern features....most of them ive seen are medium grey.....mine is dark grey, but its dipped in grease...im sure when cleaned it will be a medium grey...the grease is like 1/32 thick


i think you may be condemning hundreds of rifles because 25 of them are obvious fakes........and time will tell....in 10 years this thread will be at 2,000+ and we can talk about the current market (ha)

machine guns are for the wealthy....and in 50 years only millionaires will own them.......they wont care if their A2 came from 1 collection or another.they will all mix together and physically they look exactly the same...they wont ask for a FOIA and from what ive heard not everyone gets one back....they will just want one to show their millionaire friends ''look what i have''....macs will be $30k, thompsons 100k.........the registry will some day be below 100,000.....demand isnt going to go down and supply has shown it drops somewhat dramatically for such an expensive item

mine will be a shooter and i will enjoy the hell out of it as will my children

 

[kaen3e]

The same as they were in the 30's. with a $200 tax

 

[MG34_Dan]

My cynical mind has been thinking about the recent overflow of NIB A2s and I have come up with a theory. Maybe, just maybe, these newly discovered weapons are coming directly from Colt itself. The various dealers listing these items may be nothing more than outlets used by Colt so that Colt can remain insulated. I've seen this done in the past by some major PC manufacturers. The sellers have no investment in the product and move the stuff on a pure commission basis. In the PC industry's case, the breakdown is somewhere around 80/20. The actual owner gets 80% of the gross sale while the seller get 20%, but is responsible for any/all taxes and fees. All in all, it's a good deal for everyone. The actual owner gets his/her money and remains anonymous while seller makes his/her money with no actual investment. It's a win-win for everyone.

Getting back to out A2 anomaly, what has the past shown us? Colt has gone in and out of bankruptcy a number of times and is always in need of cash. I would assume this need of cash is the case today. A leopard doesn't change its spots. In addition, if I were Colt I would always be on the lookout for sources of cash. Suddenly I stumble on the machine gun market and cannot believe my eyes. People are actually paying ~$30K for an item I was previously selling for $700! That's unbelievable. OK, now how would I proceed? I would get my best accountant and auditor together and swear the to absolute secrecy. I would then have them go into my archives and review each and every submitted Form 2 from day one up to 1986. Next I would account for each NFA item I have ever shipped and match it against my Form 2s. When I stumble upon an item that was listed on a Form 2 but was never actually shipped, I know that I've struck gold. I would double verify that the papered-only item is not anywhere in my inventory. If the newly discovered item truly does not exist, I would suddenly make it exist using my inventory of non-completed pieces and parts. I would then pass this newly reborn item on to my dealer network. This is neat, clean, and plausible. But, it is just an unproven theory.

 

[ScottinTexas]

Certainly possible.

But seems to me they would bring more money being sold from Colt by Colt.

The reason to distance Colt from these guns is unclear to me.