Quest to find FA IMI mini uzi--- receiver /trunnion question

panhead5

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I'm not sure there's enough bandwidth to explain all the goofiness and stupidity I've encountered in attempting to find a FA mini uzi .

Here's the question --- Is there any, I mean any time period or circumstance where an IMI mini would have a FA notched trunion in it for an open bolt and not be required to be registered as a SMG ???
 

RoverDave

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Fleming did some conversions on Mini UZIs so they could use his registered bolts. He milled out the trunnions on semi-auto Mini UZIs, until the ATF made him stop. Not sure how many he did, but the registered bolt is married to those guns. The factory semi-autos were not cut that way.
 

panhead5

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Thanks Dave -- You are awesome as usual . Here's the deal , came across an open bolt IMI setup . The bolt is registered appears to be A Group Industries with paperwork on it . All good . The IMI host gun appears to have the trunnion notched for use with the open bolt but is registered as an SBR after 5/86 . This is NOT a Fleming conversion and the gun is owned and in the possession of a dealer . Thoughts ??? I'm definetly confused based on what I know and have read .
 

r

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whether the trunion is notched or not is what defines the receiver as semi or mg.
 

RoverDave

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Thanks Dave -- You are awesome as usual . Here's the deal , came across an open bolt IMI setup . The bolt is registered appears to be A Group Industries with paperwork on it . All good . The IMI host gun appears to have the trunnion notched for use with the open bolt but is registered as an SBR after 5/86 . This is NOT a Fleming conversion and the gun is owned and in the possession of a dealer . Thoughts ??? I'm definetly confused based on what I know and have read .

I've seen registered Group Industries Mini UZI bolts installed in IMI Mini UZIs. Usually people trim down the feet so they are narrow enough to fit in an unmodified trunnion. Sounds like someone decided on a different approach for the one you came across. It's probably impossible to document when the work was done or how the ATF might treat it if it came to their attention, but I think it's likely to be a problem. The fact that the gun is registered as an SBR suggests that there wasn't an attempt to marry the bolt to the gun like Fleming did, so my guess is that the ATF would see them as two separate machine guns, one of which is unregistered.
 

panhead5

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That's my interpretation of things. This was an auction on gunbroker that I looked into and it was taken down last night . I inquired into the configuration because I saw it was an IMI gun and the owner said it was an open bolt with full feet on it. He also was a dealer and I was shocked at how little he knew about the gun and the laws pertaining to it . I'm not the ATF but this looked like it might have some problems associated with it . Sad thing is it was on a Form 3 in Ohio which is where I live and the SBR and the the bolt paperwork were done by a very well known gunsmith .

Off to the next one.
 

TexPaul

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Fleming did some conversions on Mini UZIs so they could use his registered bolts. He milled out the trunnions on semi-auto Mini UZIs, until the ATF made him stop. Not sure how many he did, but the registered bolt is married to those guns. The factory semi-autos were not cut that way.

How does the Form 4 paperwork indicate that a registered bolt is married to a receiver?
 

Jack007

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How does the Form 4 paperwork indicate that a registered bolt is married to a receiver?
It doesn't.
After the admin ruling, ATF stipulated that the sears and the receiver be marked. The receivers were to be hereafter considered and treated as registered ONLY WITH the sear. Any separation of the two would render BOTH as contraband and subject to seizure and forfeiture, including any criminal penalties.
The S/N of the host gun would also be on all federal forms in the field "any additional data" etc).
I've looked through Bill's old copies and all followed this protocol. He jokingly refers to them as his "Catholic guns" as in no divorce allowed. LOL
The Minis presented a problem as unlike the full size it wasn't simply a matter of breaking off a blocking tab. So after a time, Bill took the shortcut of contouring the bolt feet to pass through the trunnion gap. In order to ensure no future legal issues, he engraved the identical info on the bolt as well. Later on several guns were shipped back by preferred customers and the trunnions were milled out and the entire gun repainted. The bolts were destroyed and replaced with Group manufactured ones. Bill worked out a deal with Group and had quite a stock of both full and Mini. He preferred them over the IMI (he also had a stock of those as well) as Group counterbored a relief to clear the bbl ring. He also remarked the replaced bolt.
There has been a lot of confusion and misinformation about the Fleming "sear guns" over the years. Some opine that they are somehow the least desirable because of the dedicated receiver issues. While I might agree on the Full size guns, the Mini versions are the closest thing to an original transferable IMI. It's also worth noting that on most of them, Bill remarked the "semi auto carbine" receivers to read "Uzi SMG". A nice touch.
 

rhouston8

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^^^interesting about the Group bolts being favored. B/c some full size uzi group bolts were out of spec, etc. I had one myself in my RR group gun. Replace the bolt with IMI, all else the same...and gun then ran fine.
 

Jack007

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Who knows with Group...they were an interesting bunch.
Back in the day, I had them send me a prototype stainless Uzi bolt. Don't know if they ever went into production.
Threw it into a guys gun awhile back and it ran fine.
Guess I'll hang onto it as a novelty. ;-)
 

RoverDave

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Yeah, the Group Industries bolts (full size and Mini UZI) do sometimes have spec issues. The advantage for Fleming is that they were relieved to fit over the barrel restrictor ring, making his job much easier. I agree that the Fleming conversions were the closest thing to a factory IMI Mini UZI SMG. The drawback is that the sear is one of the higher wear parts in the gun so it's not the best part to register from a longevity point of view. But the timing for the release of the Mini UZI Carbine didn't leave a lot of options.
 

Jack007

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But the timing for the release of the Mini UZI Carbine didn't leave a lot of options.
Can you say GLOCK? :-(

The whole story and fight over the sears makes for interesting history. In today's climate, it would never happen.
Those WERE the days.
 

panhead5

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I'd love to hear the story on the gun I was looking at. Like I said IMI SBR with an SMG trunnion and a Group bolt with feet that cleared the barrel restrictor ring . I think I raised enough questions that the owner decided it was important to figure out what he had .
 

panhead5

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Sorry about that . I don't know how to post the links , but the auction only had 3 pics and looked very normal until I started asking questions . I have looked at 4 different listings on various sites and am completely unimpressed but don't really want to turn this into a Battering Ram style diatribe or be a whiner .

Frank has a Group Industries mini one on GB that he doesn't have possession of and the pics were supplied by the client that owns it . I've called and texted trying to figure out what you are getting in the auction because it is not everything in the pics . It is a closed bolt conversion and and you have to buy the open bolt shown in the photos separately . Can't figure out if you get a ratchet top and/or a non ratchet top, nobody can answer these questions and they have to get back to the client . for this the BIN is 19k. ARE YOU SERIOUS!

Ruben has one on his website " just received payment for it yesterday " . 3 weeks later it is still on the website !

Found one on subguns , said make reasonable offer . Put together a reasonable offer but the dealer that is representing the client did not put me in direct contact with the owner and stretched it out a few days with a few shaky stipulations . Next guy comes in while we are hashing out the details and makes a better offer and 2 days later I get a text that it's sale pending !! Go figure !

Just want everyone to know the folks here that have answered my questions currently and in the past are stand up folks and I certainly do appreciate it.
 

panhead5

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I wish you had posted the GB link so we could ALL have seen it.

Jackoo7 -- This is listed on GB again . The guy contacted me and said he had the SBR removed from the registry . I'm not sure why because that wasn't the problem .
 
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