M11/15 Prototype

[chili17]

At .22lr conversions are about $150 with a mag. Additional mags are $15-$20. No waiting list for them either. Want to keep making a fool of yourself?

Be respectful, or don't play.

 

[cockednlocked45]

eepWill I be able to convert this upper to 9mm?

 

[SwampMan]

Here is the video from 03/01/17. Sorry it took so long.

Wohoooooo! Thanks! The new stock adapter looks like it sits higher on the receiver. It looks good and it works good too!

Yeah, this will be my first time having an open bolt rifle caliber gun. So I've been researching the operation. There's been a healthy discussion on the board too. The operation of the M11/15 looks like it will be solid and safe. So I'm excited to get one.

Richard, how long do you plan on testing the prototype before sending it off for ATF review? I'm just curious when the clock will start.

Thanks.

 

[strobro32]

Who makes an open bolt AR-22 conversion kit? Would the bolt-on sear catch work with an AR-22 bolt?

 

[Offmarksman]

Not aware of one. May be a simple mod, maybe not. All hypothetical to this point. Just thought it would be a cool option for this upper (2 uppers for one). Obviously, some (not You Strobo) believe that the hundreds of thousands of ar owners with .22lr conversions bought a unnecessary product, because "Why" would you do that when you can just buy a 10/22.

 

[m11stuff@hotmail.com]

The Ar .22 conversions do not fire from an open bolt. .22's are so finicky, I don't see an off the shelf .22 kit working. Additionally, it would require BATFE approval again.

 

[macs_imum]

eepWill I be able to convert this upper to 9mm?

Lol Lol Lol :bow

 

[Offmarksman]

Thanks Richard. I guess some of us will keep dreaming/waiting for an option in .22

 

[bigmacster]

So...is the only evidence of a problem with a DI open bolt system a promo video for H&K for their piston system?

I have a friend who is a weapons designer and University Engineering teacher who I am going to consult on this. With the way the AR15 bolt and bolt carrier work, it is impossible to detonate the primer without the bolt lugs fully locked.

I would say under normal circumstances the AR15 is safe with DI. I've built about 20 ARs in my lifetime and all with DI. I have all the wrenches and tools, go and no-go gauges. In all those builds I have only had one fail with a no-go. It wasn't the barrel out of spec it was the front of the upper. I took it to a local gunsmith and he took a little material off the front of the upper, the threaded part where the barrel ring stops and put it in spec. He said if I didn't fix that the bolt wouldn't have locked up and I would have had a KABOOM. The fixed firing pin scares me a little. Middle of last year at the range a guys AR blew up. The guy shooting next to him took a piece of metal in the left shoulder. I was about 5 lanes over and it scared the beJesus out of me. Later on in talking to the guy the ammo he was shooting, PMC 223 had primers that weren't seated properly in the box he had. Some were a little high. After reading this thread, coffee's comments, and doing a little studying up on OOBs with the AR, high primers, foreign matter between the firing pin and primer and bad head spacing are the number one causes of OOBs. ARs don't have a fixed firing pin. I couldn't find any major manufacturer making an AR style weapon using the rotating bolt and fixed firing pin. H&K did testing and I am curios to know how did they do it. In the final version of the H&K 416 they added an additional safety feature to it to keep the firing pin from going forward unless the hammer drops on it. You can see it in this video described around 8:37 here in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L73NzKdWAHw I'm looking for more information on that. Could the OOBs that happen from foreign matter be from crap blown in through the DI gas system? I have to read more up on it.

I think one downside of a .223 upper or any rifle caliber compared to a pistol caliber is head space is critical and the pressure is much higher so any type of OOB malfunction is most likely going to toast the upper.

If I come across anything in my Googling over the weekend I will post it here.

For those that don't know the difference between DI and GP. https://pstraub404.wordpress.com/2014/09/24/what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-colt/

 

[agriebel]

I'm on the list. The UPS truck came by but didn't stop today. I will look again tomorrow.

 

[Marty in UT]

I'm on the list. The UPS truck came by but didn't stop today. I will look again tomorrow.

Sorry, that one made me laugh. :laugh

 

[plodder]

Thanks Richard. I guess some of us will keep dreaming/waiting for an option in .22

And here most of us are just dreaming/waiting for the M11-15 to be approved & marketed by Lage.

 

[dgleavitt]

The Ar .22 conversions do not fire from an open bolt. .22's are so finicky, I don't see an off the shelf .22 kit working. Additionally, it would require BATFE approval again.

Is the AM-15 from Tactical Innovation an Open Bolt 22lr upper?

Not off the shelf though...

 

[Garrett]

Unlike the Colt open bolt system, the M11-15 has a fixed firing pin.

That's the Colt LMG fcg system. The Colt M231 does use exactly the M11/15 design.

Help me out here, guys. I understand how the Colt LMG fire control system works (trigger/sear releases BCG, auto-sear trips the hammer).

And I just found a great write-up on the M-231 at Arfcom, including how the fire control system works. This system also uses a floating firing pin, which is engaged by a striker as the bolt locks into place. Also not a "fixed firing pin".

So can someone educate me on how the MAX-11/15 is supposed to operate? Or do the references to "fixed firing pin" really mean "floating pin not engaged by a hammer"?

Thanks!

 

[lokifox]

Good thing to keep in mind is OOB can happen in any firearm.

This system is probably less prone to them than your standard MAC. If you get a broken shell in the chamber the bolt will be unable to lock into battery and ignite the primer with the firing pin. A broken shell in a MAC will almost certainly result in an OOB discharge.

Any OOB with this upper can happen just the same in a standard AR.

 

[Battering ram NIB]

what is the preferred barrel length for this upper? 11.5" ?

because this is going to be a longer body than a M16 id think the barrel has to be short to keep it manageable, but long enough to get good gas function....

curious what people are thinking would fit this upper.

wonder who's barrel/bolt/etc will be chosen?? BCM?

 

[mak91]

Help me out here, guys. I understand how the Colt LMG fire control system works (trigger/sear releases BCG, auto-sear trips the hammer).

And I just found a great write-up on the M-231 at Arfcom, including how the fire control system works. This system also uses a floating firing pin, which is engaged by a striker as the bolt locks into place. Also not a "fixed firing pin".

So can someone educate me on how the MAX-11/15 is supposed to operate? Or do the references to "fixed firing pin" really mean "floating pin not engaged by a hammer"?

Thanks!

This "Or do the references to "fixed firing pin" really mean "floating pin not engaged by a hammer"?"
Everyone seems to want to call it a "fixed firing ping" but it really isn't imho. Of the SABRE bolts that I have measured all have had between .025 and .040 gap between the firing pin and the sear catch when the bolt is fully extended. In this position the firing pin is loose and moves around freely in a limited space. After the bolt rotates into battery the final 1/8 or so of travel closes the gap and pushes the firing pin forward and it eventually protrudes out the face of the bolt. The prototype functions the same way.

 

[MDG]

I'm late to the party. If I understand this correctly, this is an upper that fits an M11/9 but shoots 5.56 ammo in full auto with no mods to the weapon.. If so, I'm in.

 

[Garrett]

This "Or do the references to "fixed firing pin" really mean "floating pin not engaged by a hammer"?"
Everyone seems to want to call it a "fixed firing ping" but it really isn't imho. Of the SABRE bolts that I have measured all have had between .025 and .040 gap between the firing pin and the sear catch when the bolt is fully extended. In this position the firing pin is loose and moves around freely in a limited space. After the bolt rotates into battery the final 1/8 or so of travel closes the gap and pushes the firing pin forward and it eventually protrudes out the face of the bolt. The prototype functions the same way.

Thanks. I was confused by the terminology. Better now.

 

[Garrett]

I'm late to the party. If I understand this correctly, this is an upper that fits an M11/9 but shoots 5.56 ammo in full auto with no mods to the weapon.. If so, I'm in.

Requires a hole to be drilled in the receiver back plate.