Looking to buy my first MAC. Q's

[timkel]

The Ingram M10 was designed to be fired with a suppressor attached.

 

[Gaujo]

I have a call with the Minnesota ATF Group Supervisor today on the subject. I'm hoping to get better clarity on an early (1972-1973) MAC and how the ATF would agree whether it's truly C&R or not.

I spoke with Rueben and he informed me that just because the gun might be 50 years old, doesn't mean the ATF will agree on it. I guess Minnesota is a difficult state to deal with. One thing he told me I could try is have a gun club purchase it for me, I could use it, and when it does hit C&R, it obviously would be mine to take home. Only thing is, I don't want to purchase a $8k+ piece of equipment and end up having to wait 20 years because the ATF won't consider it C&R. I'll really have to get the serial numbers checked on whatever I do purchase.

I also reached out to another dealer who informed me MACs aren't C&R???? It was one listed in this thread.

All noise. As a former c&r license holder that researched this I can tell you any gun made more than 50 years ago is c&r. A lot of people will talk till they are blue in the face about whatever, but the law is actually very simple and clear on this point.

The written list of guns on the list is just based on ones people asked about, guns with ambiguity, and the curios. Curios are < 50 years old but collectible or rare, like a CZ-82, from no longer on the map Czechoslovakia.

I will give you one caveat. It's possible that the date stamped on the box is earlier than when MAC got the paperwork done on the gun. We are taking should be within a matter of months though but this would require a FOIA request. I only know mine is C&R because someone with a slightly higher serial number already has their request completed.

 

[hfoster223]

The one big downside to buying a M11 SWD is that you’ll have to spend many thousands buying all the Lage add ons.
Lol

 

[pmf]

If it was mfg/registered more than 50yrs ago and is in original config,
it should be C&R by their rules. I'm intrigued to hear the results of the call
if ATF is not following their own guidance.

ATF not following its own guidance? I can't imagine that ever happening. And when they don't, just argue with them and see how far that gets you.

I think I'd trust a guy who has spent decades dealing in NFA (Ruben Mendiola) stuff over the 'experts' here.

 

[Specialblend07]

OK,

Bad news. ATF stated a M10 is NOT a C&R gun, same as what AutoWeapons had stated. He said a C&R gun is listed on their website and typically is something used during or before WWII. He also said with a Class 3, I’d need an SOT. I can get more detailed tomorrow when I’m by my computer. But basically, direct from the ATF, a 1970(ish) MAC would NOT be considered a C&R.

LAAAAMEEEEE

 

[Tommyboy]

That’s not what Ruben advertised on these Powder Springs Macs he previously sold:
http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/i...-consecutive-pair-new-m10-45acp-cr-next-year/

 

[A&S Conversions]

Please go to https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics:

"To be recognized as C&R items, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;"

IMHO, most Field Agents have a very limited specific knowledge of firearms law. They have to know a little bit of law pertaining to all aspects of what the BATF&E has oversight of. A supervisor is managing people, not making cases. The odds that the supervisor you spoke with knows the date when MAC started producing M10s is not so likely. The vast majority of M10s were made in the 80s. SWD made Mac style machineguns for the collector market and were very successful. Most of the other manufacturers chased Government contracts and went under doing so. It is my understanding that around 3,000 M11s, 8,000 M10s, and over 17,000 M11/NINEs are in the registry as transferable machineguns made by all of the manufacturers combined. The M11/NINE was invented by SWD. No other manufacturers made M11/NINEs because SWD was the last manufacturer to make MAC style RRs before the registration ban in '86.

Never trust anything an ATF employee tells you. Whether personally or on the phone. Get the response in writing. Even then it is BS. A woman at the NFA Branch told me over the phone in 2005 that I could "make" a machinegun if I submitted a Form 1. With my C&R FFL I purchased a Thompson directly from an out of state dealer. YMMV.

Scott

 

[challenger70rt]

^~~ Scott is spot on. C&R Mac’s 100% exist currently. That said, only a small percentage, probably less then 10% are currently c&r and they JUST hit mark the within the past 12 months, so the ATF may not have yet even transferred one as a C&R. The only way you’ll know for sure is to buy one that was manufactured over 50 years ago and submit it for transfer. At which point the ATF will pull the original form 2 and if the date on that is more then 50 years old, it’ll go through. I realize how ass backward it seems that a bunch of schmuks on the interwebs are contradicting what the schmucks that are supposed to be in charge are saying, but the50 year rule is literally codified in federal law. There’s 3 ways a gun gets c&r. 1) it’s over 50 years old, 2) it’s declared by the curator of a a museum as C&R,or the ATF makes a determination as such and puts it in the book. That one (possibly last two) are the only ones where ATF judgement comes into play. The first scenario is automatic.

 

[pmf]

If you manage to find an early 1970's M10 that's arguably a C&R -- do you buy it? It's not on the ATF list. Seems to be some uncertainty whether it is or is not a C&R. Frankly, if it was me I'd get a machine gun on the C&R list to avoid any problems. Suppose you spend $10k on it and ATF decides nope, not C&R -- Minnesota says, sorry you can't own it here. No chance of that drama if its on the ATF list. I really think you ought to consider a Reising. A sten would be better, but a real C&R one -- not some tube gun -- would probably be pretty pricey.

Plus, macs are dangerous to shoot in stock configuration. IMO.

 

[Specialblend07]

Please go to https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics:

"To be recognized as C&R items, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1. Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;"

IMHO, most Field Agents have a very limited specific knowledge of firearms law. They have to know a little bit of law pertaining to all aspects of what the BATF&E has oversight of. A supervisor is managing people, not making cases. The odds that the supervisor you spoke with knows the date when MAC started producing M10s is not so likely. The vast majority of M10s were made in the 80s. SWD made Mac style machineguns for the collector market and were very successful. Most of the other manufacturers chased Government contracts and went under doing so. It is my understanding that around 3,000 M11s, 8,000 M10s, and over 17,000 M11/NINEs are in the registry as transferable machineguns made by all of the manufacturers combined. The M11/NINE was invented by SWD. No other manufacturers made M11/NINEs because SWD was the last manufacturer to make MAC style RRs before the registration ban in '86.

Never trust anything an ATF employee tells you. Whether personally or on the phone. Get the response in writing. Even then it is BS. A woman at the NFA Branch told me over the phone in 2005 that I could "make" a machinegun if I submitted a Form 1. With my C&R FFL I purchased a Thompson directly from an out of state dealer. YMMV.

Scott

I understand this and have read the rule multiple times. However, I also had a recommended dealer from here tell me MACS aren't considered C&R. And another recommended dealer on here tell me it's not worth fighting the ATF on whether a 50 year old MAC falls within their C&R rules. The problem becomes, do I want to spend $8k+ and have the ATF rule it's not C&R? He specifically stated they only deem C&R guns on their list and the vast majority of those are WWII or earlier.

I really don't know who else to speak with on this, as the ATF is really the best option IMO.

^~~ Scott is spot on. C&R Mac’s 100% exist currently. That said, only a small percentage, probably less then 10% are currently c&r and they JUST hit mark the within the past 12 months, so the ATF may not have yet even transferred one as a C&R. The only way you’ll know for sure is to buy one that was manufactured over 50 years ago and submit it for transfer. At which point the ATF will pull the original form 2 and if the date on that is more then 50 years old, it’ll go through. I realize how ass backward it seems that a bunch of schmuks on the interwebs are contradicting what the schmucks that are supposed to be in charge are saying, but the50 year rule is literally codified in federal law. There’s 3 ways a gun gets c&r. 1) it’s over 50 years old, 2) it’s declared by the curator of a a museum as C&R,or the ATF makes a determination as such and puts it in the book. That one (possibly last two) are the only ones where ATF judgement comes into play. The first scenario is automatic.

You'd think that as listed on the ATF website a C&R gun is anything MFG 50 years ago and beyond. HOWEVER, I was suggested to speak with Ruben, which I did, and even he stated just because it's 50 years old, doesn't mean the ATF will agree on that. It sort of sounds like they don't want to make anymore effort for themselves and whatever is on the C&R list, is what will forever be considered C&R.

If you manage to find an early 1970's M10 that's arguably a C&R -- do you buy it? It's not on the ATF list. Seems to be some uncertainty whether it is or is not a C&R. Frankly, if it was me I'd get a machine gun on the C&R list to avoid any problems. Suppose you spend $10k on it and ATF decides nope, not C&R -- Minnesota says, sorry you can't own it here. No chance of that drama if its on the ATF list. I really think you ought to consider a Reising. A sten would be better, but a real C&R one -- not some tube gun -- would probably be pretty pricey.

Plus, macs are dangerous to shoot in stock configuration. IMO.

Yeah, I'm slowly realizing a MAC may be unattainable in my state. I'd rather not battle the ATF, I know how the government is. I also don't want to spend $8k+ and have to deal with potentially dealing with trying to recoup if things go haywire.

I see you mentioned dangerous to shoot in stock configuration? Are you saying with a suppressor and a stock? I would think like that there should be no issue, without a suppressor or stock I can see an issue.

 

[pmf]

When I say stock configuration, I mean how it comes out of the box. My M11/9 didn't come with a silencer. It came with a wire stock that telescopes into the gun -- hopefully not while you're firing it. Is a C&R gun still a C&R gun if it it altered? If so, then you're stuck with the crappy stock. And a Lage upper is certainly out. So its basically a 9mm shotgun. Without the Lage stuff, these guns really wouldn't be worth bothering with. And I bet they wouldn't be selling for such high prices.

 

[Gaujo]

You really are over thinking this. Just get your C&R license and put through the paperwork and see if it's approved. C&R form should be really fast. Just work with a dealer like Ruben that will sell it that way, and work at a contingent deal.