Length of pull on pistol brace

[SPARKY42180]

I asked this question on another forum, but thought I may be able to get more specific answers here.

I bought the folding adapter from MPA to add a brace to my mini 9 (930sst model). When I take measurements before I actually install the brace and adapter, the LOP will be between 14" and 16"

I seem to remember a 13-1/2" max LOP. However, MPA sold a pistol in this same configuration previously and even show a pic on one on their website at the very top when you select the "defender" pistols.

Like this, but mine is the mini version of the old steel framed type. Would this be legal or should I just use the folding adapter on my MPA rifle?

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/sho...s-the-new-9mm-mpa35dmg-pistol-with-arm-brace/

 

[Deerhurst]

I seem to remember the same number. I'd call MPA and ask them what the LOP is on theirs with the same setup and replicate that.

 

[slimshady]

The MAX LOP is 13 1/2 inches currently.
With the upcoming rule change at the end of the year, you might want to hold off until the actual rule gets published. Apparently even if it was approved before, it may be considered an SBR under the new rules. LOP is just one factor, they now have a "worksheet" to assign points to various features/design elements. Note the document linked to is the proposed rule, until it actually get's published as a final rule in December it is subject to change. There is no "grandfather clause", once the rule changes what was legally a braced pistol the day before is now an SBR if it accumulates too many points.

https://www.atf.gov/file/154871/download

 

[Deerhurst]

Maybe we should put more effort to making sure this illegal BS doesn't happen than panicking on how to comply.


At this time braces are completely legal and there is no guarantee the aft BS will ever happen.

As far as I understand the worksheet stupidity has not been implemented and it is also nearly impossible to comply with while having any brace. Manufacturers also do not comply with the "worksheet" at this time. More scare tactics that are apparently working.



But, yes, you'll have to figure out how to keep it to 13.5" or less because another arbitrary number makes something legal or not.

 

[slimshady]

No, the worksheet hasn't been implemented. Yet. ATF has said they intend to publish the rule in December, and I for one don't think they are lying just to scare people into removing and tossing their brace into a drawer. Unless one of the lawsuits generates an injunction before the rule takes effect (120 days after publishing IIRC) what was legal the day before ceases to be legal. The choices are to register as an SBR (amnesty or not), remove your $200 or so worth of property you can no longer use, or keep it on and hope you aren't caught. Or hold off purchasing parts you may not be able to use for more than a few months. The last option is the cheapest.

 

[root]

I agree the LOP is 13.5 last time batfe changed their mind.

but like I said changed their mind so who really knows.

Buy the stuff get a free stamp.
take it off when the amnesty hits no registration.
or the cheap route and just don't do it.

I'll be getting free stamps sine I had a FFL for a few years and have a binder of stamps.
Pretty sure they know who I am.

Besides in Pa all pistols are registered through the State police on a separate form other then the 4473 with make, model, serial, and length of barrel.
With me and my state laws on pistols there is no down side to getting a free stamp.

Already illegal as all hell to loan a handgun to someone rifle is OK.
and when I travel I don't take a large handgun I take a very concealable handgun.

It's going to come down to personal choice for everyone on how to handle guns with braces if you own one.

 

[SPARKY42180]

Thanks guys for the answers and responses.

I am not concerned with the legality of any future ATF worksheets or rules. I am asking about the current legality. Mostly the LOP.

 

[sniperdoc]

This is NOT legal advice, but I've read that it's supposed to be under 13.5"

 

[Gaujo]

Does this mean you'll get a free SBR stamp? How do they confirm the pistol brace? Can't I just put a carbine buffer on 3 different AR-15 lowers, with one SB tactical brace I share between them and get 3 SBR stamps?

 

[cajun 22]

Not to hijack but I thought this might be of some interest to those trying to figure out what the AFT is up to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGEK8FXSBwc&t=2s

 

[root]

Pix of the gun with a brace attached.

Like machine guns that transfer that are no longer in their OEM configuration.

They are asking for pix with the brace attached.


This does a few things.

1: it keeps people from registering everything.
2: dumbasses that put real stocks on their large pistols will be caught in violation of the NFA if the send in a F1 and a pic with a real stock on it.
3: This goes back to 1:
Most of stuff that will get registered will be the AR, AK, Scorpions, UZI PRO and the new Bren pistols.
Not so sure we will see a lot of 1911, Glock style handguns registered.

This part is my speculation and only my speculation.

But doing the above amnesty allows them to ban these large pistols a lot easier with a type of 94 omnibus crime bill ban.
AKA 94 AWB

No forward grip even angled.
No magazine outside of the grip frame.
Nothing over 50 oz.
No threaded barrels.
No front handguard.

Again it's speculation only,

But it really allows them to differentiate between large rifle cal handguns and smaller more traditional pistol cal handguns.
And to get rid of the larger rifle cal pistols easier by going back to their " intent" clause.

There was a time when any handgun had any way, no matter how absurd it was to mount as stock on it was by intent a SBR.
A great example would be building a UZI pistol from a full size kit.
If you didn't weld shut the rear hole and shave off the stock mount behind the grip it was considered readily convertible to take a stock.

All that draconian stuff went away with 1st brace approval.

With the amnesty they can go back to prosecuting for readily able to take a stock intent thingy.
And yes it was a real thing.

 

[ScottinTexas]

Guns like the Ruger Charger 9mm pistol are a difficult position; too heavy to one-hand without a brace, magazine extends well below the frame, threaded, front handguard.

 

[Roaster72]

Not to hijack but I thought this might be of some interest to those trying to figure out what the AFT is up to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGEK8FXSBwc&t=2s

This guy is an embarrassment to all lawyers. He's such a big successful guy that he has to shill with his clickbait videos on youtube. Nice that he provides his phone number at the end. I'm assuming you have to give your credit card to talk to him.

Not to give anything away, but his final conclusion is that if you submit a picture and your form 1 application for a tax free registration, then the ATF will actually hit you up for $200.00. So then what is his solution? Don't register? Risk getting caught in a jurisdiction with an over zealous US Attorney?

I don't like this as much as anyone else. It's typical ATF wiggle waggle where they reverse themselves. That being said, there have been amnesties repeatedly with the ATF. Of course 1968 was the last major amnesty. There was also an amnesty over the non sporting shotguns i.e. Striker 12 etc. in 1989 or 1990.

There are only two questions with this that I have. First is if the ATF is going to move the amnesty registered guns into their own new category like "Braced Pistols". I don't think this is possible without a change of law. Second is whether they will moved braced pistols to the AOW category. This would suck as you probably would only ever be able to have a brace unlike if they were moved to the SBR category. These may have already been answered. I'll admit I haven't read "everything" on the subject.

The people I really feel sorry for are those who own braced pistols because their state doesn't allow SBRs. They are the ones really taking the shaft in this debacle.

 

[Gaujo]

Pix of the gun with a brace attached.

Like machine guns that transfer that are no longer in their OEM configuration.

They are asking for pix with the brace attached.


This does a few things.

1: it keeps people from registering everything.
2: dumbasses that put real stocks on their large pistols will be caught in violation of the NFA if the send in a F1 and a pic with a real stock on it.
3: This goes back to 1:
Most of stuff that will get registered will be the AR, AK, Scorpions, UZI PRO and the new Bren pistols.
Not so sure we will see a lot of 1911, Glock style handguns registered.

This part is my speculation and only my speculation.

But doing the above amnesty allows them to ban these large pistols a lot easier with a type of 94 omnibus crime bill ban.
AKA 94 AWB

No forward grip even angled.
No magazine outside of the grip frame.
Nothing over 50 oz.
No threaded barrels.
No front handguard.

Again it's speculation only,

But it really allows them to differentiate between large rifle cal handguns and smaller more traditional pistol cal handguns.
And to get rid of the larger rifle cal pistols easier by going back to their " intent" clause.

There was a time when any handgun had any way, no matter how absurd it was to mount as stock on it was by intent a SBR.
A great example would be building a UZI pistol from a full size kit.
If you didn't weld shut the rear hole and shave off the stock mount behind the grip it was considered readily convertible to take a stock.

All that draconian stuff went away with 1st brace approval.

With the amnesty they can go back to prosecuting for readily able to take a stock intent thingy.
And yes it was a real thing.

Those limitations you mention are not an SBR though. I'm confused, because SBRs are allowed VFG and all the rest. What would they be getting classified as?

 

[root]

No idea what they will class anything as.

You are right those restrictions are not SBR definitions by default it's only the barrel and OAL.

That was just what they did to pistols back then to stop guns like the M10, AR15, and the tec9

Those were the guns they were targeting back then and used the "no this, no that" law to keep them off the market.

Their intent thing with the stock is how it was before the braces.

kinda like the auto keyCard is now. that's nothing but a drawing yet it's a MG in their eyes. And a block of plastic or a block of metal is a receiver.
Even got a letter from the PSP last Aug about doing 4473's on UFFR ( unfinished Frame or receiver ) Even though I surrendered the FFL last April when I retired.

Gaujo when they make some sense let us all know, it will be a 1st and you win the internet for the day.