Lage Flat Top or Standard Upper

[USSarizona]

Thanks for the valuable insight so far guys. This discussion is generating some great ideas.

The Max-11 is a better subgun than an MP-5 in the arena of the game it was designed for. I personally question the "Tactical Application" of the Max-11 or 10. In my opinion there are much better choices out there albeit most are semi-auto.

AZ Doug, what arena of the game do you feel the Lage upper is designed for and for what reasons is it better than the MP5 in this arena? Also, in as much detail as possible, why do you question the tactical application of the weapon? What do you feel are better choices? Thanks.

 

[THM7]

I cannot pretend to know why Richard designed the Max-11 the way he did but I think a really good "competition subgun" was one of his motivators. A good number of the converted MP-5's that I have shot and seen have reliability issues and can be a bitch to clear. These were converted guns mind you, but the thing you want above all else is Reliability. Anything that will shave off time will give you a edge in a match...Drop Free mags (Max..yes..MP5..no)...Hand meets hand mag change (Max..yes..MP5..no).etc.
As a tactical weapon my AR or Shotgun is my first choice hands down...plus I could not imagine all the legal problems you would have defending your home with a C3 weapon.

 

[AZ Doug]

...AZ Doug, what arena of the game do you feel the Lage upper is designed for and for what reasons is it better than the MP5 in this arena? Also, in as much detail as possible, why do you question the tactical application of the weapon? What do you feel are better choices? Thanks.

I was implying the arena of competition is a game and that is what the Max-11 was designed for and where it shines, competition.

As far as going into as much detail as possible regarding the tactical application of the Max-11 and what is a better choice, sorry, I will write a book some other time.

Below are a few simple points based solely on my opinion and experience:

.223/5.56 mm is a better caliber choice and in civilian/LE loadings is less likely to exit and endanger someone else.

Open bolt guns are more difficult shoot accurately than a closed bolt gun.

You should select a gun that you can buy magazines for that were designed for the gun, not depend on modified mags that can be inserted too far bending the ejector rod and thereby taking the gun out of commission.

I agree with THM7. I would choose one of my ARs or a shotgun.

 

[dcmdon]

Hi all,
I'm new here as well as new to SMGs, but have a few thoughts.
(I've purchased a M11/9 and am waiting on a Lage upper)

The lage upper makes the M11 into a real gun. Something that is satisfying to shoot, as opposed to something that just makes you smile as you send 30 rnds downrage in 2 seconds.

But lets be honest here. Its a toy. Its not a go-to gun if there are bad guys in your home.

Its not the gun you take when hurricane katrina is bearing down on you.

Its also not the gun some tactical team is going to use to clear a room.

It succeeds because the Mac / M11 is a cheap SMG and the Lage is adecent upper. No tactical guy in the world would use such a thing.

Why??
1) open bolt. its a liability nightmare
2) used MP5s are available for PDs to purchase for about $1000 ea. Thats the key difference. For us an MP5 is $15,000. For a PD, its $1000. That changes the whole game.

With all that said, why co-witness??
Why install back up sights at all if you are an optics guy.

One other thought. I have had a cheap dot optic go out on me in a local 3 gun match. Guess what? I did really well by just centering the target in the tube. Amazingly well. And I'm not very good.

So really, lets be honest. All this co-witnessing and installing of $300 matched buis stuff is just about creating gun porn. Really cool gun porn, but still just porn. Fun stuff. But no real purpose.

Thats OK. I just bought a CF freefloat tube for one of my AR's because its a couple of ozs lighter than an aluminum tube. Porn.

Don

 

[cake5150]

My vote went to integrated sights. That is what I have and I love it, cowitnesses perfectly w/ my mini red dot sight. I wound up just going w/ iron sights instead of optics for the right now though, they work fine. Plus I think the upper w/ integrated sights looks better just my $0.02 YMMV.

 

[woodenword]

Well, I voted for the integrated sights. That's what I'm going to get cause it looks cool. This is coming from a guy that doesn't even have his gun yet. But I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express one time.

 

[dcmdon]

I got everything together this spring and got a chance to shoot my lage/M11 combo. I'm glad I got it with sights. I enjoy shooting guns with sights and the Lage comes with good ones. They are basically AR15 sights, but with an obviously shorter sight radius.

I did make one small modification. The lage upper comes with the standard 0-200 and 200+ type flip aperture that an AR comes with except with the Lage, both apertures are small. So I used a reamer to open up the size of one of the apertures to a size more appropriate for short range work then used a little cold blue to knock the shine down.

Don

 

[GaGunner]

I realize this is a dying thread, but I enjoyed it. This thread and the advice I got from Richard Lage, helped me decide to order the Standard Max-11 upper. Below are copies of my e-mail exchange with Mr. Lage.

My e-mail to him:

Sir,
I am waiting on ATF to process the paperwork and I will have a SWD M-11, expected date late August of this year. I WILL BE putting one of your MAX-11 Slow fire uppers on it. However, I am unsure of which to order. Your web site shows both the flat top and standard at the same price. I plan to run the gun with a red dot sight as the primary sight, but want the option of iron sights. I will most likely run a 30 or 40MM tube red dot. I like the idea of using the standard upper so I don’t have to purchase stand alone iron sights, but I seem to recall reading something about co-witnessing problems with red dots and the sight set up on the standard upper. Can you give me any insight, suggestions, or recommendations? Thanks in advance.

His reply:

Most "Tube" style red dot sights will work just fine with the standard sighted MAX-11. I have a friend that uses a cheap red dot scope and one that uses an Aimpoint Comp M. They both work great and co-witness with the iron sights.

A C-More or EOtech Holosight will block the iron sights as they have taller bases.

Best regards,

Richard Lage
Lage Manufacturing, L.L.C.
(602) 430-1978
www.max-11.com

 

[ftldrben]

+1

This^...you think you're going to need/use an Eotech or red dot until you see how well you shoot w/the built in irons...

It's just too easy to get a sight picture and hold it w/the supplied irons.

Don't waste your $$$!

 

[AZ Doug]

If someone was worried about wasting money then they probably would not have purchased a mg to begin with. You only go around once, buy what makes you happy.

 

[ftldrben]

If someone was worried about wasting money then they probably would not have purchased a mg to begin with. You only go around once, buy what makes you happy.

It's 2010...there is such a thing as 'wasting money'...

It's not about affording but it is about doing what makes sense.

On my LWRC M6A2 SMG (don't ask what it cost to build w/RDIAS), the EOtech is perfect, in fact you NEED it. But I really believe my MAX-11 is perfect w/the built in sights. Electronics wouldn't do anything but complicate a simple, efficient and 100% reliable weapon.

My $.01 (It's 2010...)

 

[cultist]

Red dots make irons obsolete.

Be "old skool irons" if that makes you happy, but red dots are the present and the future.

Everyone whould learn to use iron sights, but red dots are still the way to go.

 

[cultist]

On my LWRC M6A2 SMG (don't ask what it cost to build w/RDIAS), the EOtech is perfect, in fact you NEED it. But I really believe my MAX-11 is perfect w/the built in sights. Electronics ..)

SO...... how much did it cost to build? w/ RDIAS?

 

[medphys]

Red dots make irons obsolete.

Be "old skool irons" if that makes you happy, but red dots are the present and the future.

Everyone whould learn to use iron sights, but red dots are still the way to go.

Unless you shoot competitively. With my flat top upper, I can run a match with optics and then remove it and flip up the iron sights to run it again. One gun. Two classes.

 

[cultist]

Unless you shoot competitively. With my flat top upper, I can run a match with optics and then remove it and flip up the iron sights to run it again. One gun. Two classes.

Good point.

Running two classes would ammo bankrupt me. :abused

 

[ftldrben]

SO...... how much did it cost to build? w/ RDIAS?

LWRC M6A2 10.5" barrel $ 2500
RDIAS $11000
Form 4 for SBR $ 200
Form 4 for RDIAS $ 200
M60Joe's tuning of lower $ 200 (this was the best thing I did, M60 rules)
Eotech $ 500
PWS brake $ 100
Wolfe spring $ 35
AFG/assorted Magpul gear $ 100
Updated one piece BCG/rod $ 225 (haven't even installed it yet/runs 100%)

Total for a MODERN PISTON DRIVEN MACHINE GUN: $15060+/-

It's a fantastic weapon, the first 'go to' weapon in the safe with PMAG's and a Beta C waiting at the ready. As long as M60Joe is around you'll have a place to repair your RDIAS albeit I've never had a problem with mine.

But I just bought a Group Industries SS M16 (it's one of the 100 built and I want a bullet proof M16 lower being a frequent shooter).

 

[2Munkeez]

OK, I know BUIS is Back Up Iron Sights (I have them on my eotech equipped M4gery) but what does MBUIS mean? And what about ATAS? I've never seen either of these abbreviations.

 

[dcmdon]

I believe MBUIS is a typ-o.

Magpul makes the MBUS. The "I" is missing because the sights are made of plastic, not iron.

ATAS, I had to look up. I found the answer in urbandictionary.com:

2. ATAS 11 up, 7 down
"All tactical and shit", pronounced ATAZ.
"Have you seen that new guy? That dude is
ATAS."

"Look at his gun, that sonnombitch is ATAS'd out"

3. ATAS 10 up, 17 down
Acronym: As Tactical As Shit. Used to describe firearms or gear that resembles milspec equipment; weapons with a large number of aftermarket accessories.
Did you see Stalin's SKS? It's ATAS!

 

[scorpionmain]

lol
I saw ATAS and thought to myself, Air To Air Stinger

 

[MHM50]

I just like the look of the flat top

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