Is New Technology Like Forced Reset Triggers Or Super Safety Going To Reduce The Viability Of Multiple Thousand Dollar Accessories

[A&S Conversions]

Hey guys, this topic came up in another thread. Instead of taking someone else’s thread in a different direction, I thought I would create a different thread for this discussion. So what do you think? With technology like the forced reset trigger or super safety, does such technology reduce the viability of developing multiple thousand dollar accessories like the Lage Max-/15 upper series or the Tenko adapter?

Of course I am biased. Even though, I don’t think such full auto mimicking devices have any significant effect on market value of transferable machine guns or the accessories for transferables. Even if such accessories are multiple thousands of dollars, if the increased functionality is greater than the monetary . Ever since the first trigger cranks came on the market, there has been a constant questioning of whether these accessories that made a semi auto mimic full rate of fire would drive down the price of transferables.

In the twenty years that I have owned transferable machine guns, there has only been one period where the market value of transferables actually decreased. That was around 2009/2010. Other than that, prices might have slowed as the economy slowed. But then prices soared to another level. I bought my Fleming HK sear in 2007 for $11,500. I had to sell it four and a half years ago and got almost $30,000 for it. Today the market value of that same sear would be around $45,000.

From my perspective, yes there is technology out there to mimic full auto rates of fire. The problem is, that to get the technology to run, the shooter needs to focus on the manipulation of the trigger. I have seen guys bump fire pretty darn fast. But they are mostly focused on the manipulation of the trigger. Certainly with enough time and practice, they can free up some focus to look for other targets and engage them. The function of the trigger in a machine gun for full auto fire doesn’t require any extra focus.

The last I knew, a transferable 5.56X45 full auto anything (other than a Mac style registered receiver with a Lage upper) is in the upper teens of market value. The Tenko can use standard off the self AR-15/M16 upper receivers. Push two pins and change barrel length and/or caliber. A Lighting Link is double the money, and then some of a Mac style RR.

Will there be buyers for this new fast firing technology? Absolutely, it is fun. But will this technology limit sales of expensive accessories for the Mac family of RRs? Only if the perceived functionality of of the accessory is less than the perceived market value of the functionality of the accessory. YMMV.

Scott

 

[Hey...]

The new 3rd position of forced reset trigger just before the aft rule went into effect was promising but with something so brazen and wild I knew it was a house of cards.

That said I’m a buyer as soon as they become available again. Perhaps they would someday be grandfathered like one of the tax-deferred brace F1s I got?

In the end I think likely… all that tech(nicality of the law) is going to be formally banned by congress and signed by any President regardless of party once it hits their desk. These things will have zero effect on transferable prices. They are a future footnote in nfa history.

Hopefully they don’t bring too much negative attention to true nfa transferables on their way to the bottom of the ocean.

 

[Galil#1]

I concur with Hey... these little tech things will come and go, but MG/SMGs shall stay MG/SMGs period. Values will never go down only stupid ass high and higher into space etc. It is what it is IMHO.
Don't hold your breath for the communist anti 2A anti American NFA/GCA to go away, unfortunately.

 

[skoda]

Any alternative can take away sales from other products. While a FRT might be close to full auto it's not actually there. For some people it will be close enough especially given the price difference to anything actually full auto. For others it's not the real thing and they can afford the real thing so they are not interested. Kinda like bump stocks sold a lot but didn't really affect the prices of full autos.

I think that such devices mostly take demand away from the lower end and the lower the price the more it takes away. Your Tenko will certainly lose a few sales to FRTs but to use the Tenko one needs to have a $10,000+ MAC on hand so it's really a decision of a $500 FRT vs a $13,000 MAC/Tenko (taking guesses with pricing). If the Tenko gives a better full auto experience than a FRT I don't think that you will lose much. If the experience is very similar I could see some MAC owners selling their MACs to buy an AR with a FRT and pocket a bunch of cash.

 

[Slowmo]

You could draw somewhat similar substitution analysis between a Lage/Tenko and M16. I wanted an M16, but then got a Lage Max 15, which scratches the itch sufficiently since I’m mostly a subgun/PCC shooter anyway.

 

[BlackBelt]

Great discussion question. I shoot binary triggers more these days than my select-fire weapons. The reason is simply that other than my Mac's my transferables have all risen in value past what my risk tolerance is for damage to them or loss of them. Transferables that I paid $2-3k for in the 1980's and 90's are selling for $50k+ now.
I consider those more investments instead of shooters.
Now the Mac's on the other hand are shooters.
I dont see enormous quantities of them for sale so I assume there is still a decent market for them as well as their accesories.
I know more folks shooting with FRT and binary triggers now than shooting transferables. I believe it is just simple economics. They want trigger time on something that is legal and shoots fast. It is just the fun of it.
And they are not tapping into the kids college funds to pay for that trigger time.

 

[Deerhurst]

Meh, it's semi auto. I don't think it will take any sales away from MGs as transferrables are so expensive. Most people don't realize a transferrable starts at almost 5 digits. A semi auto trigger such as a FRT or binary makes travelling with the firearm easier to such as why a lot of SBR guys keep parts to make their SBR a pistol.


I am hoping the current pro-2A roll keeps going. There has already been an MG case where it was ruled that there is no legal basis or historical basis to ban MGs. I would love to see people pushing the envelope and would love to see the NFA die. Maybe one day it'll happen. Maybe not.


Things such as a FRT also allow builders to make title 1 compliant firearms as close to the original as possible. What is more fun, a standard semi auto belt fed or a belt fed with a FRT? When a parts kit build can cost under $3k to build or a M249s is $10k and a transferrable is $30k for a Vickers and $110k for an M60.

Always need to keep pushing and furthering firearms. If we don't and act all defitist while whining about how this and that COULD happen the commies/left will do everything they can to make it happen. FRTs and Binaries are a wonderful middle finger at the NFA. By definition they are a semi auto trigger. Only Congress can change that. At this point Congress is too busy trying to find new ways to be corrupt and line their pockets while screwing the nation.

 

[Gaujo]

Will it relieve some demand? Yes. This was the kind of demand that might have talked about transferables, but was never was really willing to wait a year for the transfer. Transfers taking less than a week may have broadened the market, and I don't see transferables dropping. I do see them becoming more of a status item like HK sears are now where almost no owners work on their own guns.

What it does do is attract people who want to harm others, like bump stocks and that idiot in Las Vegas, which is bad for everyone.

Edit: I don't mean it's only for bad people, I mean like a glock switch, it's attractive to bad people.

 

[mwarnick1]

the shooter needs to focus on the manipulation of the trigger.

Try out a super safety for $100. No trigger manipulation is needed.

With the Rare Breed FRT it takes a small level of manipulation and I can make it fail pretty easily if I pull hard.

I’m sure we can all agree that these products are a great way to get more people interested. Normalizing fast firing guns and showing the silliness of the current laws are steps in the right direction

I have NFA MGs but they’re becoming safe queens as I shoot the SS. The number of guns the SS is being fitted into is about to explode

 

[Slowmo]

I think the biggest enemy of transferables has been rising ammo cost. The beltfed world has been one of the best examples. Some folks literally bought lifetime supplies of WW2 surplus ammo for pennies per round. I’d shoot all day for pennies per round.

Now it is closer to a dollar a round for most battle rifle ammo. Unless you have a stash or deep pockets, those beltfeds look like something that’s just going to take up space in your house (maybe that’s fine for some who just like to collect them just to have).

 

[Deerhurst]

Will it relieve some demand? Yes. This was the kind of demand that might have talked about transferables, but was never was really willing to wait a year for the transfer. Transfers taking less than a week may have broadened the market, and I don't see transferables dropping. I do see them becoming more of a status item like HK sears are now where almost no owners work on their own guns.

What it does do is attract people who want to harm others, like bump stocks and that idiot in Las Vegas, which is bad for everyone.

Attract those that want to harm others? I haven't heard this talking point. Everyone and their brother in the hood already has their Glock switches and doesn't care about the NFA anyways for their crackhead gangbanger activities. It's easier and cheaper to make many firearms FA with tools in your garage than buy a Super Safety.

As you mention Vegas. So many questions still surround that incident and so many knowledgeable people present or otherwise analyzing video that point to things other than the narrative but we likely will never know.


IMHO, firearms of every type need to be "normalized". They are not these scary things that will kill everyone. They are mechanical items like a car use for sport, enjoyment, good and bad, just like a car.

 

[mwarnick1]

I went to the range today with a group of MG buddies. We spent most of the time shooting SS’s. $150 brace lower and $100 SS.

It’s a game changer. How much it changes the game is yet to be determined but it’s very significant. We picked shooting these over transferables

 

[hkg3k]

IMO, the Hoffman Tactical Super Safety is the most creative & innovative mechanical addition to AR15 fire control since the RDIAS and Lightning Link. Period. So simple and yet almost indistinguishable from "true" full auto in its firing action and controllability. They're way cheaper than the modular FRTs out there and it's as if vendors for SSs are popping up by the week...so I imagine they'll continue to drop in price. I've run them in "standard" setup, Shrike/MCR uppers, 9mms and .22s...all without issue or compromise. Other applications (HK) are being configured by the week it seems.

Having said all that, I think SSs will have a shelf life of a few years at most...so I consider my investment in them as short-term at best. There are already states that have banned the type and that number will continue to grow. If some crackpot uses A SS (or other FRT) to kill a bunch of people like the Las Vegas bump-stock evil nut, the number of states banning them will go into warp drive.

If the Feds can't ban them based on the machine gun definition, they may go after them based on the fact they require a full auto spec part (bolt carrier) to work. The SS also requires the AR15 trigger to be opened up at the rear...just like an M16 trigger. If all that fails, I predict there'll be federal legislation banning FRTs, Bump Stocks et al. It's anybody's guess if the result of such legislation would be grandfathering those already out there and registration under the NFA -or- outright confiscation (with compensation?).

Anyway, my thoughts and opinion.

 

[LawBob]

Hey guys, this topic came up in another thread. Instead of taking someone else’s thread in a different direction, I thought I would create a different thread for this discussion. So what do you think? With technology like the forced reset trigger or super safety, does such technology reduce the viability of developing multiple thousand dollar accessories like the Lage Max-/15 upper series or the Tenko adapter?

Of course I am biased. Even though, I don’t think such full auto mimicking devices have any significant effect on market value of transferable machine guns or the accessories for transferables. Even if such accessories are multiple thousands of dollars, if the increased functionality is greater than the monetary . Ever since the first trigger cranks came on the market, there has been a constant questioning of whether these accessories that made a semi auto mimic full rate of fire would drive down the price of transferables.

In the twenty years that I have owned transferable machine guns, there has only been one period where the market value of transferables actually decreased. That was around 2009/2010. Other than that, prices might have slowed as the economy slowed. But then prices soared to another level. I bought my Fleming HK sear in 2007 for $11,500. I had to sell it four and a half years ago and got almost $30,000 for it. Today the market value of that same sear would be around $45,000.

From my perspective, yes there is technology out there to mimic full auto rates of fire. The problem is, that to get the technology to run, the shooter needs to focus on the manipulation of the trigger. I have seen guys bump fire pretty darn fast. But they are mostly focused on the manipulation of the trigger. Certainly with enough time and practice, they can free up some focus to look for other targets and engage them. The function of the trigger in a machine gun for full auto fire doesn’t require any extra focus.

The last I knew, a transferable 5.56X45 full auto anything (other than a Mac style registered receiver with a Lage upper) is in the upper teens of market value. The Tenko can use standard off the self AR-15/M16 upper receivers. Push two pins and change barrel length and/or caliber. A Lighting Link is double the money, and then some of a Mac style RR.

Will there be buyers for this new fast firing technology? Absolutely, it is fun. But will this technology limit sales of expensive accessories for the Mac family of RRs? Only if the perceived functionality of of the accessory is less than the perceived market value of the functionality of the accessory. YMMV.

Scott

I think the court ruling mg laws are unconstitutional has more effect

 

[LawBob]

You could draw somewhat similar substitution analysis between a Lage/Tenko and M16. I wanted an M16, but then got a Lage Max 15, which scratches the itch sufficiently since I’m mostly a subgun/PCC shooter anyway.

I have. In the end of the day subguns are more fun than 556 bc you can only shoot 3-4-5 mags max fa

 

[Gaujo]

I have. In the end of the day subguns are more fun than 556 bc you can only shoot 3-4-5 mags max fa

You mean before getting too hot?

 

[root]

I'd think all these new triggers are good for the guys living in states that can't get a MG. or are not finacially set to afford one.

I would not pay todays prices for a FA but that is also older me saying that after shooting many of them in my life.
Younger me bought the cheapest one I could find. Lage just came along and made it better ( thank you Richard Lage )
I tried the binary and it's not something I can get used to due to the way I shoot so I sent it down the road. I've yet to try a forced reset trigger.
If I could get a SS trigger I'd give it a go but I haven't put any time into looking who sells them.

Pretty sure like already mentioned they won't be replacing MG's any time in the future.
A machinegun is just that a machinegun and most work as designed.
Binary & FRT stuff are add ons that all seem to have their own quirks.

I couldn't get used to fully releasing the trigger on the franklin.
And even in this thread it is brought up that the rare breed can out run the bolt without issue.
A MG just pull the trigger back and it works as intended.

 

[strobro32]

Does the new federal ban on the ATF determinations on FRTs apply to the Super Safety?

 

[Slowmo]

Does the new federal ban on the ATF determinations on FRTs apply to the Super Safety?

I have not followed closely, but I think one district court placed a preliminary injunction on the ATF preventing enforcing of their interpretation against certain parties, but I think another district court placed an injunction on Rarebreed. I’m not sure that there has been any national-level action on FRTs; maybe I’m just out of the loop though.

That said, the overturn of Chevron deference and the logic demonstrated in SCOTUS’s decision on the bump stock ban suggest to me that FRTs will eventually be cleared.

 

[Deerhurst]

Does the new federal ban on the ATF determinations on FRTs apply to the Super Safety?

For some reason I remember reading that FRTs are back on the menu.


I should like to get a super safety. I may be able to make one.