Information on Hk conversions needed
- Thread starter gorillastomp
- Start date
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
The article listed above is a good starting point. As with the M16, prices of sears and registered trigger frames have risen much higher and faster than HK registered receivers. Unlike the M16 the barreled receiver is the regulated part, so caliber and configuration changes (like barrel length) are done with a $1,000 to $12,000 firearm rather than a $300 to $5,000 upper.
The hierarchy seems to be:
The recent change in many pre sample factory machine guns being reclassified as transferable.
Register fire control frame.
Registered sear. Some sears are rated higher in value than others.
Properly done conversion of a factory semi auto receiver to take an unmodified factory full auto trigger group with the front push pin.
Unmodified semi auto receiver converted with an unregistered sear. As with an unaltered Colt SP1 lower receiver that was registered as a registered receiver machine gun but converted with an unregistered DIAS, this is an improper conversion. Such a conversion will transfer, but if somehow ATF examines such a conversion, there could be legal “entanglements”. That is why for me, I would not consider such a conversion.
With over 20 host guns, most of which are configurations that HK never made, my Fleming sear was a lot of fun. There can be a very deep hole for host guns. Using HK receivers and parts can be incredibly expensive. An HK53 parts set has a market value of around half that of a M10 registered receiver. A completed conversion of a HK93 to HK53 SBR using all HK parts done by a name HK smith could be around the market value of a M10 RR. Good luck with your search.
Scott
The hierarchy seems to be:
The recent change in many pre sample factory machine guns being reclassified as transferable.
Register fire control frame.
Registered sear. Some sears are rated higher in value than others.
Properly done conversion of a factory semi auto receiver to take an unmodified factory full auto trigger group with the front push pin.
Unmodified semi auto receiver converted with an unregistered sear. As with an unaltered Colt SP1 lower receiver that was registered as a registered receiver machine gun but converted with an unregistered DIAS, this is an improper conversion. Such a conversion will transfer, but if somehow ATF examines such a conversion, there could be legal “entanglements”. That is why for me, I would not consider such a conversion.
With over 20 host guns, most of which are configurations that HK never made, my Fleming sear was a lot of fun. There can be a very deep hole for host guns. Using HK receivers and parts can be incredibly expensive. An HK53 parts set has a market value of around half that of a M10 registered receiver. A completed conversion of a HK93 to HK53 SBR using all HK parts done by a name HK smith could be around the market value of a M10 RR. Good luck with your search.
Scott
gorillastomp
UZI Talk Life Member
I have came across two conversations that I am looking at. Both have are marked on the receiver. One is a hard times armory the other is a Fleming. The paper doesn’t have any information so I assume they are receiver guns. I am trying to figure out how they were converted. The hard time gun is still marked 94 but the Fleming is marked 53. I know hard times has a bad reputation so that is why I am looking for the information. They both are priced below average for a receiver gun. I plan to buy both. Just want to educate myself.
Mr. Stomp,
As mentioned earlier, a "correct" RR conversion will have a front push-pin. Be careful as some conversions were done with a fake front push pin (the front thing that should be a pin is the head and point of the pin glued into the trigger frame) and still have the S/A shelf retaining the front of the grip frame.
Enjoy the search,
K2
As mentioned earlier, a "correct" RR conversion will have a front push-pin. Be careful as some conversions were done with a fake front push pin (the front thing that should be a pin is the head and point of the pin glued into the trigger frame) and still have the S/A shelf retaining the front of the grip frame.
Enjoy the search,
K2
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
The Hard Times receiver guns that I have seen over the years were all improper conversions with an unaltered semi auto receiver and an unregistered sear. If the guns are RRs, odds are that they are improper conversions. The lower price is tempting, but there is a reason why these guns are below market value. They are also “one trick ponies”. Your money, your choice, but I wouldn’t put tens of thousands of dollars into a gun that could become a nightmare in the wrong circumstances.
There is also the issue of the twist rate of the barrel in the 53 conversion. Back in the day, it was difficult to source the 1/7 twist actual HK53 barrels. So many of the 53 conversions were done with modified 1/12 twist barrels. The 8.9” length 1/12 doesn’t stabilize even 55 grain ammo. There is also the issue of how the cocking tube and cocking tube support was done. It is my understanding that HK no longer makes the 53. No one is cutting up post samples any more. There are still US made after market parts but that will also effect the market value.
If you have the funds for both conversions, it is my opinion that you would be better served to buy a Quality or Fleming sear. You could buy a couple of decent host guns and be into the set for less than the two problematic RRs. YMMV.
Scott
There is also the issue of the twist rate of the barrel in the 53 conversion. Back in the day, it was difficult to source the 1/7 twist actual HK53 barrels. So many of the 53 conversions were done with modified 1/12 twist barrels. The 8.9” length 1/12 doesn’t stabilize even 55 grain ammo. There is also the issue of how the cocking tube and cocking tube support was done. It is my understanding that HK no longer makes the 53. No one is cutting up post samples any more. There are still US made after market parts but that will also effect the market value.
If you have the funds for both conversions, it is my opinion that you would be better served to buy a Quality or Fleming sear. You could buy a couple of decent host guns and be into the set for less than the two problematic RRs. YMMV.
Scott
secondofangle
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2015
- Messages
- 310
I would find out EXACTLY what I was buying in the context of the above linked information on the different kinds of conversions.
Sears are most versatile and priced accordingly
RR (properly done double push pin) used to be the cat's meow because "purists" thought so, but no longer because of sear versatility
I'd love to find a DLO box, but you don't want to cut/drill it for a 4-position setup which you can easily do with a sear
Lafrance boxes require a proprietary sear (no SN) in a SN box, also undesirable if you ask me
Any RR with a "conversion part" that has no SN or registration is suspect as mentioned, because it's married just like the RR, but it's in a legal gray zone, and CANNOT be moved to another gun.
Your $$$ spend it as you wish, just don't be surprised if its' hard to find a buyer if you buy one of the gray zone guns, and you're selling at an even bigger discount than you're hoping to get at purchase.
Sears are most versatile and priced accordingly
RR (properly done double push pin) used to be the cat's meow because "purists" thought so, but no longer because of sear versatility
I'd love to find a DLO box, but you don't want to cut/drill it for a 4-position setup which you can easily do with a sear
Lafrance boxes require a proprietary sear (no SN) in a SN box, also undesirable if you ask me
Any RR with a "conversion part" that has no SN or registration is suspect as mentioned, because it's married just like the RR, but it's in a legal gray zone, and CANNOT be moved to another gun.
Your $$$ spend it as you wish, just don't be surprised if its' hard to find a buyer if you buy one of the gray zone guns, and you're selling at an even bigger discount than you're hoping to get at purchase.
Nome Nomad
Active member
Registered trigger box or a sear from the big 3 (S&H, Qualified, or Flemming) Are the most desirable/ versatile in my opinion. I was in the same situation a year or so ago when I took the plunge into the HK world, I ended up with Qualified sear. I would avoid "weird" sears such as the Lafrance sears. Be careful if you buy a sear installed in a host gun! Make sure you're able to legally move the sear around, the paperwork must specifically list an auto sear as the registered machine gun and be installed in a shelf 9x style gun; if it's installed in a double push pin conversion then it's married to the host kind of like a registered M16 or AK sear. Good luck with the hunt!
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
That is just the opposite of my understanding. For a proper registered receiver conversion of a 9 series receiver to a registered receiver machine gun, there must be a front push pin hole. If the 9 series receiver does not have the front push pin hole and still has the shelf but is registered as a registered receiver machine gun but is covered using an unregistered sear, the conversion is improper. Like a M16 registered receiver, the defining feature of registered receiver machine gun is that hole in that specific place in the receiver. That is why when installing a paddle mag release lever, the installer can drill a hole through one side of the receiver, but can not drill through the other side.
I would think that the Technology Branch would consider a front push pin hole registered receiver that was converted using an unregistered sear in a semi auto clearanced trigger frame to be two machine guns.
Since such a registered receiver with the front push pin hole using an unregistered sear would technically be an improper conversion, I certainly would have no interest in owning such a conversion. I can’t say as I have seen such a configuration. The improper conversions that I have seen were unaltered semi auto receivers registered as a registered receiver machine gun using an unregistered sear.
Scott
I believe Nome Nomad is referring to the Vollmer registered sear "double push-pin with swing down lower" MP5s which were grandfathered just after the making ban. There's not a lot of them out there, but the do exist. Legally. Those registered sears are permanently married to their host MP5 receivers.
Nome Nomad
Active member
Hkg3k is correct into what I was referring to.
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
This would be a learning experience for me. I owned a Fleming sear. When the sear transferred to me it was “married” to a Vollmer converted 94. The reason the sear was “married” to the 94 receiver was that the converted 94 would be an unregistered SBR without the sear installed. In the 4h section (Additional Description or Data Appearing on Firearm) of the Form 4 transferring the Fleming sear. My understanding of the “married” concept is that, in this case the receiver of the 94 would be an improper configuration. So I could change the configuration of the receiver by installing a 16” barrel, register the receiver the receiver in the configuration it was in (have a 07/02 file a Form 2 or file a Form 1 myself registering the 94 as a SBR), or destroy the 94 receiver. I chose the Form 1.
So if the Form 4 states that the registered machine gun is a sear, if the host firearm is a 94 with a front push pin (which is the feature of a roller delayed machine gun receiver) how would that be any different than the unregistered SBR host gun? My understanding is that a host with a front push pin, like my Vollmer converted 94 would need it’s own registration to stand alone.
So if the complete gun was sent to a 07/02 manufacturer, the 07/02 filed a Form 2 registering the 94 receiver as a Post Sample, why wouldn’t the sear be “divorced” from the host gun? How would that be any different from the Vollmer converted 94? Or for that matter, if the owner destroyed the push pin 94 receiver, how would that effect the transferable status of the sear, other than removing the 94 receiver from the note in section 4h of the Form 4? I would think the host 94 with the front push pin would have some value to a 07/02 manufacturer, instead of destroying the 94 receiver with the front push pin.
Scott
So if the Form 4 states that the registered machine gun is a sear, if the host firearm is a 94 with a front push pin (which is the feature of a roller delayed machine gun receiver) how would that be any different than the unregistered SBR host gun? My understanding is that a host with a front push pin, like my Vollmer converted 94 would need it’s own registration to stand alone.
So if the complete gun was sent to a 07/02 manufacturer, the 07/02 filed a Form 2 registering the 94 receiver as a Post Sample, why wouldn’t the sear be “divorced” from the host gun? How would that be any different from the Vollmer converted 94? Or for that matter, if the owner destroyed the push pin 94 receiver, how would that effect the transferable status of the sear, other than removing the 94 receiver from the note in section 4h of the Form 4? I would think the host 94 with the front push pin would have some value to a 07/02 manufacturer, instead of destroying the 94 receiver with the front push pin.
Scott
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This (going on 40yrs) ATF ruling (as I recall) for this specific situation after the making ban didn't allow for a "divorce" procedure from those (front push pin) hosts. "Married" permanently.
So instead of sear marriage with the possibility of "divorce" (as with your HK registered sear & a few of mine), ATF ruled (at the time) those HK registered sears be permanently married without the possibility of divorce to those receivers with a front push pin hole.
Having said that, there was a post on HKPro (a few years ago) which the poster claimed they petitioned ATF to be allowed to "divorce" the registered sear from this configuration with the caveat that the receiver had to be destroyed. AFAIK, there was never any followup or confirmation that they had in fact done that...so, I wrote off the post as something that either never happened or the petitioner changed their mind.
Further clarification to your questions would need to come from Tech Branch...with a current staff at least a generation {maybe 2} from the staff which made the original ruling. This was also in the same time frame when ATF grandfathered a bunch of AK47s which were converted with registered mil-spec autosears.
So instead of sear marriage with the possibility of "divorce" (as with your HK registered sear & a few of mine), ATF ruled (at the time) those HK registered sears be permanently married without the possibility of divorce to those receivers with a front push pin hole.
Having said that, there was a post on HKPro (a few years ago) which the poster claimed they petitioned ATF to be allowed to "divorce" the registered sear from this configuration with the caveat that the receiver had to be destroyed. AFAIK, there was never any followup or confirmation that they had in fact done that...so, I wrote off the post as something that either never happened or the petitioner changed their mind.
Further clarification to your questions would need to come from Tech Branch...with a current staff at least a generation {maybe 2} from the staff which made the original ruling. This was also in the same time frame when ATF grandfathered a bunch of AK47s which were converted with registered mil-spec autosears.
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
Thank you for the explanation. Once the hole for the front push pin was made, I would think that “once a machine gun, always a machine gun” would apply. To me, the “married” would be about the configuration of the receiver, not the registered sear. Where as, the unaltered semiautomatic receiver registered as a registered machine gun receiver, but was converted using an unregistered sear would not be able to be “divorced”.
Scott
Scott
Nome Nomad
Active member
In summary sears should be able to be divorced if the following criteria are met: the paperwork lists a sear as the machinegun and the host gun doesn't have a front pushpin hole. I have successfully done this with my Vollmer HK 51 and Qualified sear.
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