Help identifying M11/9

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

I think FTF sells a Sten magazine catch for the M-11/9mm.

Yeah you’re right they do, they’re somewhat common I suppose because of the MPA guns and VMAC, but it’s a different style than the early SWD sten mag guns. It’s for unmodified sten mags.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

The detailed replies you've gotten on this thread are remarkable. We're very lucky to have such knowledgeable and generous members.

If this was ar15.com you would have gotten an answer with six acronyms nobody knows what they mean or a snarky response that you should already know it.

There is a definitely a drastic difference in the quality of conversation amongst the class III subgun crowd vs the trendy M4 fad rifle crowd. These second generation Subguns are timeless, there is a lot of knowledge on this board because guys have been doing this with the same guns for decades now. Over on arfcom it’s probably like 60% kids younger the age of 30 that learn everything they know about firearms from call of duty games and garandthumb videos and the majority of products and brands they support have been on the market for less than 2 years.

 

[root]

WerbelsGhost
There were so many deals in the late 90's early 2000's
surplus was like the border is today open and flowing.
Things were coming in most people had no use for and sold for almost free. Or got given away with a order.

Centerfire had a deal buy a AMD-65 kit get a free suomi kp31 kit.
Don't even get me going on the Mil pull down reloading surplus from Klinton closing all the Mil bases.

We need a remember when thread.

ICguns.
Nice Sten maybe one of the nicest finishes I've seen on one in a very long time.

Glad to see you putting those little semi macs back together also.

 

[Deerhurst]

The detailed replies you've gotten on this thread are remarkable. We're very lucky to have such knowledgeable and generous members.

If this was ar15.com you would have gotten an answer with six acronyms nobody knows what they mean or a snarky response that you should already know it.

The ARFCOM reply was me directing him here.

 

[DINK]

Also, it's pretty easy to restore the stops on the Sten mags. I took an old surplus screwdriver and shaped the blade so one side was still flat and the other was a rounded shape that tapered to the end. By tapping that into the flattened magazine stops, they came right back up, They looked and functioned like the squashing never happened.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

WerbelsGhost
There were so many deals in the late 90's early 2000's
surplus was like the border is today open and flowing.
Things were coming in most people had no use for and sold for almost free. Or got given away with a order.

Centerfire had a deal buy a AMD-65 kit get a free suomi kp31 kit.
Don't even get me going on the Mil pull down reloading surplus from Klinton closing all the Mil bases.

We need a remember when thread.

ICguns.
Nice Sten maybe one of the nicest finishes I've seen on one in a very long time.

Glad to see you putting those little semi macs back together also.

I mean from a business standpoint I truly cannot come up with any benefits to shipping with overstock of perfectly good sten magazines vs brown paper or something… the additional shipping charges from the all the extra weight added to the package alone would be a deal breaker for me! I suppose maybe if they were shipping flat Rate and flat rate only. Otherwise it would be pretty silly logistically to use 32rd sten magazines in place of packaging material, even if they were free. Anyway, I’m not really trying to derail this guys thread. I know he got his answers already but I try to keep it on topic the best I can. My apologies! Back to RKW M11/9 sten mag frames!

 

[hkg3k]

It's worth noting the earliest M11/9s (semi) were built and sold with a STEN grip-well, before Zytel mags were developed. See "The Mac Man" page 328. These factory STEN grip-well semis are very rare in my experience. I've only ever seen (2) in all my years of being in the hobby.

This factory STEN grip-well is also profiled like the M10-45 where the mag-tab channels can be seen on the outside. Also, unlike Craig Wheatley's aftermarket STEN grip-well, the early factory STEN grip-well variant kept the mag release in the same position and a mag release engagement strip was added to the back of the STEN mag...so it used a proprietary configuration of the STEN mag.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

It's worth noting the earliest M11/9s (semi) were built and sold with a STEN grip-well, before Zytel mags were developed. See "The Mac Man" page 328. These factory STEN grip-well semis are very rare in my experience. I've only ever seen (2) in all my years of being in the hobby.

This factory STEN grip-well is also profiled like the M10-45 where the mag-tab channels can be seen on the outside. Also, unlike Craig Wheatley's aftermarket STEN grip-well, the early factory STEN grip-well variant kept the mag release in the same position and a mag release engagement strip was added to the back of the STEN mag...so it used a proprietary configuration of the STEN mag.

The early sten mag semi auto Cobray M11/9 pistols pop up on GB once every few months. They are serialized from 1983, I believe it was only the first thousand or so semi autos that had the sten magwell and the SMG supposedly never did. Very rarely do they ever have the original modified Cobray marked sten magazine with them those mags are impossible to find. They were modified with an extra inch or so of steel plate welded to the rear of the mag for the magazine catch and I believe the mag stops may have been ground down but the gun did have flares for the mag stops on the grip. I have two friends in the hobby that have early 1983 11/9 sten magwell guns. Between the two of them they have a handful of the original sten 11/9 mags, one of them has a Cobray marked mag loader for the sten mags also… super rare loader. The early sten magwell guns are rare, but not unheard of, they do pop up somewhat regularly despite so few of them having been manufactured that way. The RKW frame in question was a much later endeavor by Russel weeks. I believe that rkw frame is from 1994, it was the predecessor to masterpiece arms

 

[pmf]

Yep, you'll need to file the tabs (or lightly tap them in with a hammer) slightly so the mag will enter the grip-well and engage the internal stops. Doing so won't preclude them from still being used on your STEN smg.



Not really. They're a product of the 94 AWB when Zytel mag prices went over $200 each -and- didn't last long due to feed lip erosion with F/A use. At the time, STEN mags were still dirt cheap and Craig Wheatley introduced a way to utilize a cheap high cap mag for the M11/9 when high cap mag prices were insane. Today (with Z-mag availability), most view the STEN conversion as a negative. I don't necessarily agree with that sentiment as I have 2 F/A guns with the STEN magwells...and they've always been extremely reliable. They also accept the 50rd Lanchester mags as well.

There was another STEN grip-well for the M11/9 that came later...one which looks in profile like the Grease Gun grip-well on the M10-45, where the tab channels for the magazine can be seen on the outside.

I bought a sten converted M11/9 during the AWB. Along with a big pile of sten mags from Wheatley for something like $5 per mag. They're impossible to load by hand, but easy with a loader. They've lasted forever and always worked just fine. At the time, I'd never have believed you if you told me the AWB was going to sunset.

 

[Deerhurst]

The AWB did have a sunset clause so it's days were numbered from the beginning.

 

[strobro32]

Imagine if the M11/9 SMG were designed to take Suomi 36 round DF box mags or Uzi mags. The gun would probably be much more popular.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Imagine if the M11/9 SMG were designed to take Suomi 36 round DF box mags or Uzi mags. The gun would probably be much more popular.

I have considered the idea of the 9mm Uzi m11/9 conversion before as well. It is most likely possible to put the magwell on the gun and insert Uzi mags into the gun, but getting it to run may not be so simple. The M10/9 tx gun was the original prime candidate for the Uzi mag conversion. It used the same magwell and single feed zytel magazines as the m11/9 prior to the conversion. I have to assume that since the m10/9 magwell fits on the m11/9 and the Uzi magwell fits on the M10/9 in place of the m10/9 magwell, then the Uzi magwell should fit on the m11/9 as well. The only problem would be the bolt. With the Uzi conversion for the M10, it requires switching over to a double feed bolt. It would most likely not be compatible with the M11/9’s single feed bolt or people would already have been doing this decades ago. I’m not sure the dimensions of the m11/9 bolt would even allow a proper conversion or modification to be done. It may not be wide enough.

 

[hkg3k]

The AWB did have a sunset clause so it's days were numbered from the beginning.

Not really. It could have easily been renewed and extended or made permanent. The renewal was blocked from ever coming to a vote by the Republican majority at that time...all the while Bush 2 intimated that if it made it to his desk he'd sign it, knowing full well it'd never make it to his desk.

Mag and "assault weapon" prices remained high throughout the AWB's last year (2004) because of the uncertainty of whether the ban would be renewed...and only began to fall right at the end of the deadline, when it was obvious it wasn't going to be renewed.

 

[hkg3k]

Imagine if the M11/9 SMG were designed to take Suomi 36 round DF box mags

IIRC, Lage did exactly that (Suomi mag adaptation) with a run of MAX-11 mk1 uppers. A drop-in sheet metal feed insert (think semi Uzi feed ramp in concept) had to be employed and even with that, the reliability hinged on Lage mating each insert and upper to an individual lower. It was later dropped. I don't know how many were produced...hopefully Lage or someone who owns one could comment further.

I have to assume that since the m10/9 magwell fits on the m11/9 and the Uzi magwell fits on the M10/9 in place of the m10/9 magwell, then the Uzi magwell should fit on the m11/9 as well.

It's my understanding adapting the Uzi grip-well to the M11/9 is an issue of the of the grip-well being too wide for the M11 width frame. Converting the M11/9 bolt to dual-feed configuration was not the problem...see above.

 

[strobro32]

The Uzi mags are thinner than the Suomi box mags in size, especially at the top of the mag. The Uzi mags rattle around in an M11/9 grip.

I think the Uzi mags would have made a better option from the start of the M11 and M10. Here's a picture of a prototype M10/9 with an UZI mag/grip and Drop in FCG made by John Foote.

Sam Schnieder of Practical Solutions still makes the Uzi grip mod for the M10/9.

Here are some of the prototype DF bolts and various configurations I played with.

I owned one of the Lage drop-in feed ramps and made my own DF bolt and upper. It was easier because Lage added weight to the top of the Max-11 to compensate for the reduced weight of milling the bolt.

The problem with the OEM M11/9 bolt was the the Suomi box mags are the same width as the bolt. A lot of weight needed to be removed of the bottom of the bolt for the Suomi mags. I added an extended recoil rod to support the bolt in the upper to keep it from dropping down.

I even dabbled with the the closed bolt Max-31A and DF suomi mags.

Maybe the best option was if Wayne made better mags to begin with.

 

[hkg3k]

The Uzi mags are thinner than the Suomi box mags in size, especially at the top of the mag. The Uzi mags rattle around in an M11/9 grip.

I think the Uzi mags would have made a better option from the start of the M11 and M10. Here's a picture of a prototype M10/9 with an UZI mag/grip and Drop in FCG made by John Foote.

Sam Schnieder of Practical Solutions still makes the Uzi grip mod for the M10/9.

Here are some of the prototype DF bolts and various configurations I played with.

I owned one of the Lage drop-in feed ramps and made my own DF bolt and upper. It was easier because Lage added weight to the top of the Max-11 to compensate for the reduced weight of milling the bolt.

The problem with the OEM M11/9 bolt was the the Suomi box mags are the same width as the bolt. A lot of weight needed to be removed of the bottom of the bolt for the Suomi mags. I added an extended recoil rod to support the bolt in the upper to keep it from dropping down.

I even dabbled with the the closed bolt Max-31A and DF suomi mags.

Maybe the best option was if Wayne made better mags to begin with.

I (mis)understood your previous post to mean you weren't aware that a DF Suomi mag M11/9 conversion already existed / tried...let alone you'd successfully performed the conversion yourself.

I didn't mean to imply an Uzi mag couldn't work in the M11/9...by either possibly shimming the Uzi mag for the existing grip-well -or- creating a proprietary grip-well for the Uzi mag. It's always been my understanding that the oem Uzi grip-well was too wide for the M11 receiver and not an issue with the bolt / mag clearance.

And yes, looking back. Had those Zytels been designed with a metal liner and a better polymer...we might not be having this conversation.

 

[Deerhurst]

Not really. It could have easily been renewed and extended or made permanent. The renewal was blocked from ever coming to a vote by the Republican majority at that time...all the while Bush 2 intimated that if it made it to his desk he'd sign it, knowing full well it'd never make it to his desk.

Mag and "assault weapon" prices remained high throughout the AWB's last year (2004) because of the uncertainty of whether the ban would be renewed...and only began to fall right at the end of the deadline, when it was obvious it wasn't going to be renewed.

So, yes, it had a sunset cause.


It could be renewed today if CONgress decided to. Notice it's CONgress, not PROgress.

 

[hkg3k]

So, yes, it had a sunset cause.


It could be renewed today if CONgress decided to. Notice it's CONgress, not PROgress.

Sure, it had a sunset clause...but the ban sunsetting was not a foregone conclusion as you imply in your post. Its days were actually not numbered when it was enacted.

Could it be renewed it today? I'm pretty sure renewal, by the language in the law, had to happen prior to its sunset. Renewal didn't happen and thus the 94 AWB died. RIP

 

[pmf]

The AWB did have a sunset clause so it's days were numbered from the beginning.

Nobody expected anything but a continuation of the AWB on into the future. It was a complete surprise to everyone I knew back then that Congress sat by and let it expire. When do gun laws ever go backward?

 

[A&S Conversions]

The biggest downside of the Uzi mag conversion is that the mag needs to be deeper into the bolt. The single feed mag bullet angle can be adjusted towards the chamber. The Uzi double feed mag is only slightly angled up. So the round leaving the Uzi magazine must mount the Uzi magazine higher into the upper receiver to center the round to enter the chamber. This requires that the bolt be modified. I have two M10/9s with the Uzi magwell grip modifications. The mag relief cuts are so deep into the bolt that they are almost into the hole for the ejector.

Because the M10 ejector is vertically deeper into the bottom of the bolt than the M11/NINE ejector is deeper vertically into the bottom of the bolt for the Uzi mag conversion, I don't know if the M11/NINE bolt is deep enough to have the additional depth of the Uzi mag relief cut and not interfere with the M11/NINE ejector rod. Just a thought.

Scott