FRT15 and Rare Breed and ATF suit

Haris1

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Rare Breed Sued ATF over FRT15

The Case that Rare Breed filed against ATF in response to the cease and desist action by ATF was dismissed by the judge on OCT 28th on some technical thing.

Rare Breed never refiled so I wonder what is the legal state of these triggers that myself and thousands of others own.

Now Big Daddy is selling a AR15 with the copycat WOT Trigger installed
Is that a turnkey illegal machine gun or a legal semi auto fun gun ?

ATF has also warned some people verbally not to sell these triggers until the issues with them and ATF were resolved.

Anyone have some new information on the present situation??
 
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ericthered

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The mail fraud allegations are interesting. Which would obviously be based on whether the courts decide these are machine guns or not. Which reasoning people know to be false. But not everybody gets the luxury of dealing with reasoning people. Which it sounds like they found a judge that would issue the papers they request.
 

Renegade

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"She [judge] also said probable cause exists that they did not register the devices to conceal their sale from the ATF."

Yeah, No.

They did not register them becuase even a 5 year old can read the law and see they do not meet the definition of Machine Gun.
 

secondofangle

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Rare breed is making a gimmick product that jams all the time and is not fit for anything other than plinking. They intentionally skirted the existing laws, arrogantly thinking they had found a loophole, and picked a fight with the ATF.

If any of you guys thinks they're courageous geniuses, please donate money to their cause. Lots of it. Order 10,000 FRT triggers from them for future sale. Do something for the cause, guys!
 

Deerhurst

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Rare breed is making a gimmick product that jams all the time and is not fit for anything other than plinking. They intentionally skirted the existing laws, arrogantly thinking they had found a loophole, and picked a fight with the ATF.

If any of you guys thinks they're courageous geniuses, please donate money to their cause. Lots of it. Order 10,000 FRT triggers from them for future sale. Do something for the cause, guys!

🤪 Huh?? They make and sell a trigger. It apparently works pretty good at being a trigger. Not their fault that your gun jams and can't use it. They didn't test it in your gun. It's your job to make it work in your gun.

It's not a "loophole". It's simply how things work and the definitions set in place that Congress (opposite of progress) decided upon. By those definitions even shoelaces should be legal to use as the firearm still functions as semi auto. The AFT likes their little game where they try to charge you for pre-crime thinking they know your intentions before you do.

If you had made this post somewhere like ARF you would be laughed off the forum and be called a glowy. Uzitalk is kinder and gentler though.


I happily will donate money to their cause. The aft has been rogue for decades and needs to be put back in their place. Hard and with no punches pulled.

Also so many things on the NFA are now common use and it's time for them to be removed. Most notably SBR and suppressors.

If anyone can head that up I will fully support them. I lack the cash and knowledge to do so and thus I can send a few bucks to those who can and want to. If a new million like me send a few bucks that ends up as a pretty little pile.

A s an owner of various different NFA categories I'd love to see the entire NFA go away forever. I want my FA to fall to zero value. I want more people to have suppressors without stupid poll taxes and waits designed to discourage ownership. I want more MGs and I want to be able to afford the ones I want. Can't really see a downside. "Oh criminals will have them then" is BS as we all know all these things can be found in less reputable ways or just 3D printed. Prints for all sorts.of things are on the net and many of us have the tooling to just machine them ourselves. Criminals already have all the stuff law abiding peoples can't have.
 

ericthered

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Hello. As one of the "poors" (I do like that term!) I thought to chime in. I do want a rarebreed... but am to poor to afford one lol.
First: Ther is no such thing as "loop holes". Either something is allowed or disallowed by law. There are no gray areas. As pointed out about the reading comprehension skills of a 5 year old being sufficient to understand that there is absolutely nothing illegal about a forced reset trigger.
Are FRTs a perfect replacement for machine guns? No. They fill the gap for people that want to have a good time without selling their pickup. They can assist in spitting out a good bit of lead in short order however. I would think that anyone remotely concerned about keeping any kind of freedom would be concerned about this lawsuit. It isnt about whether a frt is a machinegun, its about whether a agency can rewrite the law on demand. If rarebreed wins, I would expect these things to become much more common and in more platforms. If it fails then everybody better start putting body armor on their dogs.

As a poor I do like to educate myself on things I could never afford. Yes the rare breed can have malfunctions, but they are all do to incompetent installation/tuning (money can buy a decent gunsmith to tune your gun).

Secondofangle, I am really happy for you that you can in fact afford to buy your tons of NFA, and that you exercise regularly with your hoops. I wish that I was like you and could afford the cool things you have. I to would then be in a exclusive club where I could look down on all of the poors who are crowding around the ar15 snake oil stand looking for the latest gimmick to spend the last drops of their paycheck on. Or the poor saps who clutching their last pennies gaze on in lustful wonder and hope that they to can one day afford the oil!

All joking aside (that was a joke, I do actually quite enjoy your poor comment, I find it extremely funny). The thread was about the feds lawsuit against rarebreed, it wasnt actually a invitation to poop on the poors. I do respect deerhursts point of view on the value of his machineguns.

Side note: would be curious if any matches would be setup in the future that allow these things.
 

deadduck

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All pie in the sky happy talk.

I'm not on ARF for a reason. Bunch of chest thumpers. Great info there, but chest thumping doesn't get very far other than making you feel good. I'll just have a beer and a laugh instead.

I have NFA too. Tons of it. The RB FRT is a piece of junk if you have ever shot one. I have. If I were among the poors, I'd probably clamor for one too.

But I accept reality. If I want FA, I jump through the hoops and pay the cake. I can piss and moan all I want, but I live in the real world.

I return to my premises: if anybody is so convinced that the FRT is the way of the future, while the rest of us morons pay $40k+ for a RR, go ahead and buy one and get on the subpoena mailing list. Better yet, buy an entire inventory.

Yeah....
I remember the first time someone peed in my cheerios. 😫
 

sweersa

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Imagine if existing forced reset triggers get grandfathered in through some amnesty and then Ruben puts up a section for them on his site. :p
 

A&S Conversions

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Imagine if existing forced reset triggers get grandfathered in through some amnesty and then Ruben puts up a section for them on his site. :p
If that was going to happen, Slidefire stocks would be in the registy as transferables. ATF is pulling out the stops because Laurence defied them. He is a better man than I am.

Scott
 

Kuglespritz

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Rare breed is making a gimmick product that jams all the time and is not fit for anything other than plinking. They intentionally skirted the existing laws, arrogantly thinking they had found a loophole, and picked a fight with the ATF.

If any of you guys thinks they're courageous geniuses, please donate money to their cause. Lots of it. Order 10,000 FRT triggers from them for future sale. Do something for the cause, guys!
A loophole you say or they have a trigger that is not a machinegun as defined in Title 26 of the USC? As the Fifth Circuit clearly stated a couple of weeks ago....the definition says function of the trigger.
 

sweersa

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It's funny how there's a few (or more) other triggers on the market that do the same thing, and work in about the same way that are not getting as much attention from the JBT agency. I'm not going to help them by naming any.

Hopefully as many flood the market as possible.

Maybe they should focus on the inner cities, where most real crime happens. There's tons of videos on social media with young gangstas waving around Glocks with auto switches (real machine guns) and ads advertising these same switches (most, if not all flood in from China) and when you visit the web pages selling them, there's people reviewing them, with photos of their hands and sometimes themselves and their firearms with them installed. Should be fishing in a barrel instead of a lake for the AFT.
 

Offmarksman

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Hello. As one of the "poors" (I do like that term!) I thought to chime in. I do want a rarebreed... but am to poor to afford one lol.
First: Ther is no such thing as "loop holes". Either something is allowed or disallowed by law. There are no gray areas. As pointed out about the reading comprehension skills of a 5 year old being sufficient to understand that there is absolutely nothing illegal about a forced reset trigger.
Are FRTs a perfect replacement for machine guns? No. They fill the gap for people that want to have a good time without selling their pickup. They can assist in spitting out a good bit of lead in short order however. I would think that anyone remotely concerned about keeping any kind of freedom would be concerned about this lawsuit. It isnt about whether a frt is a machinegun, its about whether a agency can rewrite the law on demand. If rarebreed wins, I would expect these things to become much more common and in more platforms. If it fails then everybody better start putting body armor on their dogs.

As a poor I do like to educate myself on things I could never afford. Yes the rare breed can have malfunctions, but they are all do to incompetent installation/tuning (money can buy a decent gunsmith to tune your gun).

Secondofangle, I am really happy for you that you can in fact afford to buy your tons of NFA, and that you exercise regularly with your hoops. I wish that I was like you and could afford the cool things you have. I to would then be in a exclusive club where I could look down on all of the poors who are crowding around the ar15 snake oil stand looking for the latest gimmick to spend the last drops of their paycheck on. Or the poor saps who clutching their last pennies gaze on in lustful wonder and hope that they to can one day afford the oil!

All joking aside (that was a joke, I do actually quite enjoy your poor comment, I find it extremely funny). The thread was about the feds lawsuit against rarebreed, it wasnt actually a invitation to poop on the poors. I do respect deerhursts point of view on the value of his machineguns.

Side note: would be curious if any matches would be setup in the future that allow these things.
What’s to prevent the ATF from “re-interpreting” away your NFA items, or not allow further transfers of them. Google Martin Niemöller. “First they came for…”. I’m sure Martin justified his lack of civic responsibility by his present comforts too.
 

ericthered

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What’s to prevent the ATF from “re-interpreting” away your NFA items, or not allow further transfers of them. Google Martin Niemöller. “First they came for…”. I’m sure Martin justified his lack of civic responsibility by his present comforts too.
I guess I don't see why you quoted me, as near as I can figure we are of generally the same opinion? My opinion is abolish the nfa. Obviously the aft loves to reinterpret things. Which is what this is a discussion about. We all know as well that agencies are not pro civilian gun. So reinterpretations will always ultimately end up as a deficit.
 

sweersa

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According to several posts elsewhere folks who ordered the WOT triggers (cheaper copy of the RBT) Rare Breed acquired from BDU and sold last November are getting calls, letters, and sometimes visits from the AFT. They must have renewed interest in getting these from people. It is believed they got records from USPS. Seems people have been contacted in the last 60 days or so according to what I have read. The letter basically says they are not legal, and they have reason to believe the person has one or more, and that they need to surrender it/them.

Something to be said for using cash and face to face transactions!
 

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