First UZI, FA: Getting close, looking fresh opinions on the options to go with.

[AlaskaUZI]

I’ve been pouring over for hours on end while saving up for a FA UZI and I’m getting close to the current market. Wish I had done this years ago when they were cheaper but alas, here I am.

Currently up to $16,000 and I’m starting to get an itchy trigger finger so to speak. Bottom line is I want an UZI I don’t need or have to worry about in terms of spare/surplus parts fitment, Registered Receiver, etc.

My first choice is an IMI RR conversion that’s still a bit out of my price range. It’s got the blocking bar and barrel restrictor ring removed so AFAIK, it’s the prime choice. Being IMI it should be in-spec in case I needed any spare parts from a surplus parts kit and high build quality.

Second choice is a Group Industries gun. This particular one I’ll be able to afford a lot sooner, but it’s not marked Vector Arms. Is there any more info on these GI guns without the Vector markings because I can’t find anything. I read that all GI guns are Vector Arms built, but was there a period where they didn’t mark them or would this be a straight-up Group Industries build? My concern here is the out-of-spec issues, the late-BWE Firearms talking about the trunions coming out, and not being able to fit parts.

Third choice, I suppose this is also second choice too, is a Vector/Group Industries gun. I like that they’re build to be SMGs and not conversions but the previously addressed issues concern me particularly with getting them fixed. Some people have said over the years their FA Vectors have been fine, others haven’t. Now that these guns have climbed to the $20,000 mark and not the lower prices of previous years has the opinion on these changed?

And as far as getting them fixed: Is Vector Arms still in business as of 2023/2024 or are they gone too along with BWE?

I’ll try to keep saving for an IMI but the temptations of lower priced UZIs is beginning to hit me.

Am I overthinking things and should just go with a GI or Vector and get on with my life? Or is a properly converted IMI worth saving for?

I was raised to do research before purchases and this is one of those times where it feels like it’s doing me more harm than good.

 

[Samuel_Hoggson]

Am I overthinking things.............?.............it feels like it’s doing me more harm than good.

Yes. Would not obsess about spare parts fitting a fully converted receiver. Parts kits are still reasonable (relatively), as are mags. Fit issues can usually be solved.

You can be perfectly happy with a registered IMI, Group, Vector receiver. Yes, you can encounter a lemon, whether IMI, Group, or Vector.

Something to keep in mind as you read all the relevant threads archived here.......those who have problems with X, Y, Z receivers are more likely to post about their travails. Those who do not have problems with X, Y, Z receivers tend not to post. I'm in the latter category, two Vectors, both trunnion issue-free.

Things break tho. Had to have a backplate rewelded. Big deal. There are reputable Uzi repair options, gets discussed here at regular intervals.

Friend bought his first MG from Ruben last month. A Vector, he's happy with it. I told him to look for one that had been shot some.

 

[K2]

Hi AlaskaUzi,

If possible, shoot the gun before you buy. Would you buy a car w/o a test drive? At a minimum a proof-of-life shooting around 100 rounds. The gun should run w/o any failures for at least 100 rounds. Offer to pay for the ammo. Anyone selling (unless NIB) should be willing to demonstrate their product.

While most of the SMG's that are shot have been fixed by now, there are still some that need work. I've seen IMI guns with the trunnion bored off center while making them "MG spec", Vectors with broken backplate &/or trunnion welds, feed ramp welds broken in IMI guns, and the list goes on. There are a few folks still working on these guns but the list is changing.

I think you are on the right track with a RR gun w/o the blocking bar. A good gunsmith can fix anything that goes wrong with a true RR Uzi. You have many resources on this forum.

Welcome to the boards,

K2

 

[trilogymac]

Only thing I would add to all of the above great advise, is that I remember when new in box Vector equated to, gun wont run.
Dont get me wrong, I'd buy one in a heartbeat, as long as the buyer would show proof of life with 100 rounds as stated above. Everything being equal, price/function/features, my preference is still a full spec IMI.
Welcome!!

Bill

 

[Hassayamper]

I bought a Vector last year and got my Form 4 in the spring. I wanted a shooter, not a safe-queen investment or museum relic. It has been rock-solid with all 9mm ammunition I've tried, except Fiocchi 115 gr for some reason. 72-round mag dumps from a C&S Metallwerkes drum mag almost never fail to produce satisfactory results. Parts are drying up, but mostly can still be found if you are willing to spend stupid money like $100 on an extractor. I sent it to AK Arms in New Hampshire for a machined feed ramp and fitment of the .22 conversion kit. I also have a solid .45 kit. In all 3 calibers, it purrs like a kitten now.

I would do it again. I think either Vector or Group is the way you want to go. IMI conversions would be more expensive. Bolt and sear guns would be less compatible with milspec parts.

 

[Dirk Hawthorne]

I never noticed that converted IMI guns are more expensive than Vectors.

Vector UZIs are built from Group Industries flats with South African IMI parts. They are 100% mil-spec and will take any IMI parts.

The Group Industries flats had dimensional errors, but Vector corrected that when they manufactured the receivers into finished guns.

The only problem with Vector guns is that *sometimes* the trunnion welds and/or rear plate welds are weak and need to be re-done.

My Vector was rewelded by BWE and it runs 100%. I must have 20,000 rounds through it at this point.

I also got a milled billet feed ramp put in.

One nice thing about the Vector guns is that they case-hardened the receiver flat when they built the gun, so it resists bolt wear better.

As far as I'm concerned, my Vector is "the best of all possible worlds." I would not trade it for a converted IMI gun.

I'm not saying that out of pride of ownership, the gun is 100%. There is simply nothing to complain about.

Be aware that UZIs like hot ammo and some bulk-pack ammo is kind of weak. If you start getting FTEs and stovepipes, get hotter ammo and check your extractor & extractor hole for crud and your extractor for "springyness".

 

[bigu2fan]

I bought a new Vector in about 2000, and have put about 30,000 rounds in 9 mm and maybe half that much of .22 through it. No issues in 9mm other than having to replace an extractor. Exceptionally reliable with good quality 9mm ammo. In .22 it's a different deal.

I also have an IMI RR blocking bar removed (converted by Group Industries) with about 25,000 rounds 9mm through it. If I could buy just one it would be an IMI RR with blocking bar removed. I would like the trunion to be unaltered and to keep the barrel restrictor ring intact. I would not risk boring out the semi trunion because of the possibility of overboring it or boring it slightly off center. I also would keep the barrel restrictor ring because it is an additional point of support/contact. These are conclusions reached after years of shooting and talking to folks who are far more knowledgeable than me (plus at least one of shooting buddies being a mechanical engineer with lots of trigger time on Uzis).

That said, my Vector has been top notch in terms of reliability. However, if you get an IMI RR with blocking bar removed, you eliminate any possibility (however small) of trunion alignment issues and poor back receiver weld issues that could crop up in a Vector. I do not think the "problems" with Vector guns are as prevalent as you might think. I echo Samuel_Hoggson's post above "Something to keep in mind as you read all the relevant threads archived here.......those who have problems with X, Y, Z receivers are more likely to post about their travails. Those who do not have problems with X, Y, Z receivers tend not to post. I'm in the latter category, two Vectors, both trunnion issue-free."

Keep in mind that if you choose a RR IMI with blocking bar removed AND restrictor ring intact AND unmodified trunion, you will need to research the .22 kit you are getting (if you would like a .22 kit). I am pretty sure all the original Group kits, Vector kits and the newer Subgunordnance kits are designed to run in guns with full auto trunions and no restrictor rings. The .22 kits can be modified to work with restrictor rings and semi-auto trunions, though.

--bigu2fan

 

[mike]

Unless you intend to shoot 45 or 22 long rifle, I wouldn’t turn my nose up to a registered bolt. One would be a cheaper If money is an issue, I’ve had my bolt for 20 years and shot thousands and thousands rounds with it in different uppers and never had an issue. On the plus side you can move it from upper to upper. Just my two Cents.

 

[dustindu4]

20k, I'm rich!

 

[colossians323]

$15,475.00
$17,500.00
Not mine but help for OP

 

[trilogymac]

$15,475.00
$17,500.00
Not mine but help for OP

Dont forget the taxes!!

 

[Galil#1]

Dont forget the taxes!!

And +10% for the Big guy.

 

[pmf]

Some good advice here. I bought a a NIB Vector in 2001 directly from Vector before they ran out. The acquisition process was a little more than I'd describe as frustrating. I think I've posted it here before. A couple observations:

1. IMI guns seem to bring a small premium. Yes, they are in spec, but how the conversion was done is kind of important.
2. Vectors don't have a Vector stamp on them, just Group Industries. That's who made the receivers that Vector later bought in a bankruptcy sale.
3. The only problem I ever had with my Vector was it ran away a little after a while (2-3 shots after I let my finger off the trigger). I just swapped out the sear and problem solved.
4. I had a 22 kit for my uzi. It was a GI kit. I never did get that thing to work very well. It required hot 22 ammo which was often hard to find and you had to clean out the mags after every use. Some guys swear they have 100% running 22 kits, but that wasn't my luck. Its fun shooting full auto 22, but when the gun jams 2-3 times per mag, its just not worth the trouble. I sold it.
5. I have a 45 acp kit with a modified lower that allows for the use of 30-rd M3 grease gun mags. It rocks. Never jams. But will make you realize why Thompsons are so heavy.
6. Per (4)-(5) above, and someone's suggestion above, a bolt gun (which is the least desirable form and the cheapest) isn't a bad option if you're just shooting 9mm. That's all I shoot out of my uzi. I haven't used the 45 conversion in a decade. And bolts are made of super hard steel -- they'ree indestructible. If you somehow damage the host, getting a new one will be way cheaper and less hassle than getting a RR repaired.
7. God forbid you get a lemon, but almost anything is fixable. If I were selling my gun, I'd make a video of me shooting it to demonstrate that it runs just fine -- mostly to silence the Vector critics. Maybe ask for that. They're a great first machine gun. Super reliable, so simple they make an AK look complicated, parts kits are still out there although you don't really need one, mags are cheap and uzi mags are really good mags.

Good luck. Let us know what happens.

 

[Bunker Dan]

Some good advice here. I bought a a NIB Vector
2. Vectors don't have a Vector stamp on them, just Group Industries. That's who made the receivers that Vector later bought in a bankruptcy sale

Mine does.

 

[RoverDave]

2. Vectors don't have a Vector stamp on them, just Group Industries. That's who made the receivers that Vector later bought in a bankruptcy sale.

That's incorrect. Almost all Vectors have "Vector Arms NSL UT" stamped on the left side of the gun, in addition to the original Group Industries stamp. Additionally, on guns made by Vector, the paperwork will list the manufacturer as "Champion Shooting Supplies."

 

[AlaskaUZI]

I think I’ll be going with a Group Industries SMG soon. Appears to be a very early one, SN: 100034. Not vector marked, so I’m assuming it was not built by Vector.

The seller told me they test fired it and it ran fine, it’s David Spiwak, and he seems to have a good reputation so I’m gonna trust that. Although he didn’t say just how many rounds he fired.

I tried to put my mind at ease with this thread. I read this problem and that problem with GI and GI/Vector guns but they were older accounts and it’s been a while since there was a new thread, from what I saw at least, so I wanted some fresh opinions on these guns.

I suppose worrying about boogeyman problems before actually getting mine in my hands and firing for a while isn’t doing me any favors. If I have any issues with mine it’ll just have to be a “cross that bridge when I get to it” type situation. Hoping for the best of course.

It appears that Jason Andrewski and Vector Arm is still around to do work on these if I needed any re-welding or gunsmithing done in the future. It’s a shame that BWE passed away.

Hopefully mine won’t have any issues that a simple parts kit drop-in won’t fix.

 

[trilogymac]

John Andrewski.

 

[pmf]

That's incorrect. Almost all Vectors have "Vector Arms NSL UT" stamped on the left side of the gun, in addition to the original Group Industries stamp. Additionally, on guns made by Vector, the paperwork will list the manufacturer as "Champion Shooting Supplies."

You're right, there is a small Vector Arms stamp under the top cover on the same side as the serial number.

But my form 4 lists the manufacturer as Group Industries, not Champion Shooting Supplies, which makes sense because GI manufactured the receiver.

This is a smg, not a semi.

 

[pmf]

My apologies for lack of attachment skills.

 

[trilogymac]

Congrats!! You will be very happy with a Vector.