Can Richard Lage Build a Open Bolt Upper for M16s?

Haris1

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I think that would be a heck of a great product. Anyone know if there are more M16s out there than M11s?
Advantage- Open bolt guns shoot slower and are more controlleable than
close bolt guns generally.
Hope Richard answers this post
 

A&S Conversions

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Sorry that I am not Richard, but an open bolt variant of the M16 has already been made almost 30 years ago. Please read https://thecoltar15resource.com/light-automatic-rifle/ for the details. This open bolt system requires a Registered Receiver M16, open bolt specific fire control, and a modified full auto bolt/carrier group. I certainly agree that Richard makes a great Mac style RR product, using the fixed firing pin as in the Max11/15, in a standard upper could be used with any AR making it a machinegun.

Scott

ETA the upper can be used on a standard AR Lower. To run open bolt the special open bolt fire control must be used with a M16 lower with a notch in the bottom of a full auto bolt/carrier group.
 
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Deerhurst

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My open bolt mac at ~1000RPM begs to differ with open bolt being slower. Many many open bolt guns flat out run! Look at the PPSh! Anything with low weight, odd ergonomics and a high ROF will be a handful. Things like the MG42 are controllable open bolt high ROF guns due to weight and bipods.

As Scott said, it required a special FCG as open bolt guns have no hammer but just a sear that physically holds the bolt.

I don't see this being legal fr anything but a registered receiver as open bolt is a no no if it's not on the NFA list.

It would be cool to see more things that function like the FG42 being open bolt FA and closed bolt semi.
 

sniperdoc

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The M231 FPW is an OB M16, and it's definitely not slow
 

TSPC

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I have a Colt M231 open bolt. It’s really fast but that’s because of the short buffer tube and stiff recoil springs. A concern I have with it, and the reason I rarely shoot it, is that all the force to stop the bolt is put on the auto sear pin, and the steel pin may eventually egg out the aluminum around the pin hole. The M231 uses a larger diameter auto sear pin (it’s the same diameter as the hammer and trigger pins) but it’s still steel against aluminum. It would be an even bigger concern with the smaller standard diameter pin hole.

The Colt LMG that Scott mentioned is a different system but it uses the hammer to stop the bolt which could also cause egging out of the hammer pin hole.
 

SecondAmend

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... Anyone know if there are more M16s out there than M11s?...

There are considerably more registered M16s (approx. 50,000 including converted AR-15s, RDIASs, and the 520 Lightning Links) versus 17,000 SWD M11/9s plus a relatively small number of semi M11/9s that individuals converted and Form 1 registered. The total number of registered "MACs" counting the M10s, M11-380s, and including the aforementioned 17,000 M11/9s is estimated to be in the 38,000 - 40,000 range. These numbers were gleaned from generally accepted figures posted on the old (pre-MGC ownership) Suguns.com website.

MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.
 

A&S Conversions

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ROF is normally adjusted with mass, spring rate, and stroke. Hopefully "amphibian" will be by and discuss his research on ROF of the M16 platform. He has had great success with Kynshot hydraulic buffers and Tubbs flat wire springs.

The Colt open bolt system releases the bolt group by a notch in the bottom surface of the carrier. The trigger cams the hammer down as the trigger is pulled. If you go to https://www.tacticalinc.com/catalog/product/id-420?products_id=420 the first photo shows the open bolt M16 fire control. There is a notch at the top of the hammer. Here is a picture of the light machinegun http://www.armslist.com/posts/10226...rearms-for-sale--colt-light-machine-gun-upper fire control and hydraulic buffer.

Scott
 

sniperdoc

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Forgotten Weapons has a video on the M231, and, IIRC, the LMG.
 

amphibian

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It would be cool to see more things that function like the FG42 being open bolt FA and closed bolt semi.

Three that I know of:
1. Geoff Herring (Inventor of the Shrike) has one but I don't know if he ever released it:
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=2249
"Ares Defense has designed a few of their own trigger systems to work with their upper receiver to permit open-bolt fire in the “FULL” position when installed in a registered lower receiver. Because the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) has ruled that an open-bolt firing mechanism installed in a semiautomatic-only firearm manufactured after 1981 would be a machine gun in and of itself, they designed these only to fit registered MIL-spec lower receivers. The first variation produces an open-bolt “SAFE-AUTO” function. The second variation produces a closed-bolt “SAFE-SEMI” and an open-bolt “AUTO” function. These will both be available as accessory options for those with approved Form 4’s or an FFL/SOT."

2. LWRC's M6: https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/lwrcs-multi-mission-battle-rifle/
"As a semi-automatic, it functions as a typical closed bolt rifle. If you toggle the selector from “semi” to “open bolt automatic,” the rifle’s bolt remains closed for the first shot, increasing ignition probability to 99.7 percent, allowing the infantry automatic rifleman to take point on patrol, initiate an ambush, or be the first through any door. After that first shot, the weapon reverts to an open bolt, allowing light-automatic fire support. When you release the trigger between strings of fire, the bolt remains to the rear, allowing convection air cooling of the barrel and chamber area. When you pull the trigger again, the bolt closes and fires continuously until the trigger is again released, with all the advantages of an open-bolt machine gun. To go back to closed bolt, semi-automatic fire, the operator switches the rifle’s selector back to semi. The bolt closes and chambers a round, but does not fire. When you pull the trigger, you get single shots with each pull. This offers all of the advantages of both types of systems with the disadvantages of neither."

3. Lastly, Jim Sullivan did it also but not sure about the required modfications: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOUKXIrDE0I

I don't know of any out in the 'wild' for people with transferrables and even if they were out there, I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig to see how it holds up long term.

Any M16 open bolt system would require specialized fire control and carrier. For me, I like the ability to quickly swap uppers for pistol calibers or whatever. I wouldn't want to give that up just for open bolt or even want to deal with the hassle of swapping out the firecontrol. As a C2, sure why not and just have a dedicated postie lower but not as an individual.

Getting a slow RoF is not hard but getting it to be smooth is kind of subjective.

I find the configuration to below to be bouncy but one of my friends loves it. He is the only one though. Everyone else hates the way it feels. 474 RPM
14-5Mid_556Tubb_A5_9mmKynshot-FerFrans-1024x512.jpg


I much prefer this setup with the same upper. 636 RPM
14-5Mid_556Tubb_A5_9mmKynshot-1024x502.jpg


What I've been trying to do is to get a slow cyclic rate in a shorty and retain smoothness.
Below is pretty smooth. 589 RPM.
10-5_556Tubb_A5_9mmKynshot_FatBoy_070-1024x554.jpg


I've got a lot of data just not enough time to document it all on my site.
 
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GWP

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a picture of the open bolt.
 

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