Any realistic way to determine prior to purchase if blocking bar was originally removed?

[Slowmo]

Sorry if this has been asked, I've been having trouble searching for old threads since the forum changed formats.

Is there a realistic way to determine if the blocking bar on a registered receiver was originally removed when converted or got removed later somewhere along the way? The only way I am aware of is to do a FOIA request for the original paperwork, but my understanding is that it can take years to fulfill, so obviously you cannot realistically rely on this before making a purchase.

Can you tell based on who did the conversion?

Maybe I am worrying about a nonissue, but the idea one could spend all that money on what the ATF might consider to be an illegal machinegun is troubling to me.

 

[Roaster72]

A FOIA request is your only way to be certain. Even then, the conversion information won't always provide that information. Compound this with the fact that some manufacturers converted in different ways. Fleming for example did full conversions with the blocking bar removed, did partial conversions with an unregistered slotted bolt, and finally registered some sears.

Several years ago I maintained a database of serial numbers and conversions of uzis. It was a fun project for myself and didn't take much time, maybe a couple hours a week. Weekly I farmed subguns, sturm, gunbroker, and a few major dealers to get serial numbers, manufacturers, and conversion types. Within a couple years I was able to confirm what I thought was happening; a gun moved from a slotted bolt conversion to a conversion with the blocking bar removed.

Now none of this impacted me as I rock a Vector. I just was just interested to see if it happened. Don't ask me about any specific gun or conversion because the database is gone. Yep, completely shitcanned.

Personally I see no need to worry about it. For probably 99.9% of the registry of transferable guns, the ATF has never examined them or even handled them. It would be a herculean task for the ATF to audit the registry and examine every gun. The ATF has more than enough work with all the glock switches and "fuel filters" being sold on facebook. They aren't worried about gun collectors with too much money trading around machine guns. Several years ago I attended a gun law conference. One of the presenters was an ATF lawyer. His exact words when asked if the ATF was going to audit the registry were, "the last people we worry about are the ones who follow the rules".

 

[trilogymac]

Every FOIA I have ever received didnt show how the gun was converted. Only info I received was the original dated F2 and future transfers.
I'm like Roaster, If its a RR gun I wouldn't worry about it. Like Fleming, Hard times did Uzis numerous ways.

 

[ferndog1]

I did two Form 1 conversions, first was an AR-15 in 1985, second was a Chinese AK during the early months of 1986. On the AK conversion, I had to include a letter describing exactly how the conversion was being done. The instructions stated that a copy of the letter be included each time the gun was transferred to a new owner. AK is long gone (sold for $2300.00 in 1993)I have not seen or heard of such a letter since. HOWEVER, I'm sure the ATF has a copy of the letter describing the exact conversion procedure. If they had such a letter describing an UZI conversion, leaving the blocking bar intact, it might cause a problem somewhere down the road. But unless there were some shady dealings or crime, I doubt if ATF would ever have cause to inspect any converted gun.

I think most known C2 manufacturers doing conversions, Erb, Fleming etc. would have removed the blocking bar. C2 Charlie Erb once told me the blocking bar was somewhat difficult to remove, so MAYBE a few individuals doing Form 1 conversions, who didn't have the means or skill to remove the bar, would have left it in place (?) Back in the '80s slotted bolts were available for conversions.

 

[trilogymac]

Interesting ferndog1!! I also did a form 1 in 1985 for an AR15. It was an EA lower that I milled out for a factory sear. I didn’t supply any details on mine either and like you, never heard of a detail letter before or since other than your AK!
I would be curious to see a FOIA on that AK and see what they supply!

 

[hkg3k]

IIRC in their early days, Vector actually offered to "correct" and "bring to full mil spec" slotted bolt RR conversion Uzis...to include removing the blocking bar. I think Vector offered this service for a couple years...till ATF caught wind of what they were doing and told them to stop. As far as I know, nothing happened with any of the guns that Vector completed to a "full-spec" conversion.

Many such "hiccups" have occurred in the history of our hobby...the typical response from ATF has been to put a stop to the activity and nothing further. The only time I can remember ATF confiscation is when those goobers were transferring MAC serial #'s to other, much more expensive, weapons like MAG58's, M60's, etc.

 

[Renegade]

I never submitted a letter describing how I did it either.

I did some sears (1982, 1985, 1986) and most boxes were N/A. AR-15? HK? Glock? Only I know.

 

[ferndog1]

MAYBE...
At the time ATF approved some registered AK sears until they discovered that a "third" hole was needed to install them. They quickly rescinded the approvals UNLESS the hole was drilled and parts installed, before they stopped the transfers. Those conversions were grandfathered. ATF considers a third pinhole in an AK receiver a "machine gun".

Mine had the receiver registered. But I once had an AK with a registered sear, it was permanently married to the receiver.

 

[Slowmo]

Several years ago I maintained a database of serial numbers and conversions of uzis. It was a fun project for myself and didn't take much time, maybe a couple hours a week. Weekly I farmed subguns, sturm, gunbroker, and a few major dealers to get serial numbers, manufacturers, and conversion types. Within a couple years I was able to confirm what I thought was happening; a gun moved from a slotted bolt conversion to a conversion with the blocking bar removed.

Now none of this impacted me as I rock a Vector. I just was just interested to see if it happened. Don't ask me about any specific gun or conversion because the database is gone. Yep, completely shitcanned.

That's an interesting project, and I am not surprised at all that it is still going on since the financial incentive is there to do so.

 

[Roaster72]

That's an interesting project, and I am not surprised at all that it is still going on since the financial incentive is there to do so.

I guess you didn't read the entire quote. It is not going on. I had no financial incentive to do it, it was just for my own entertainment.

The registry is rife with problems. Just a few examples are divorced lightning links from improper AR conversions, Lightning Links which became drop in auto sears, and the aforementioned blocking bar removals. I am not going to maintain a database that could theoretically be used against an innocent purchaser. Sadly the NFA world has a handful of tattle tattle tales and criminals. Both of these clowns end up hurting innocent buyers.

 

[hkg3k]

Sadly the NFA world has a handful of criminals.

Amen!

Sadly the NFA world has a handful of tattle tales. These clowns end up hurting innocent buyers.

Double Amen!! Criminals & scammers will always be criminals & scammers regardless of the venue...but I've never understood the mentality of the letter-writers.

 

[Kramer]

Amen!

Double Amen!! Criminals & scammers will always be criminals & scammers regardless of the venue...but I've never understood the mentality of the letter-writers.

Yep we have lost a lot to those a-holes.

 

[Slowmo]

I guess you didn't read the entire quote. It is not going on. I had no financial incentive to do it, it was just for my own entertainment.

The registry is rife with problems. Just a few examples are divorced lightning links from improper AR conversions, Lightning Links which became drop in auto sears, and the aforementioned blocking bar removals. I am not going to maintain a database that could theoretically be used against an innocent purchaser. Sadly the NFA world has a handful of tattle tattle tales and criminals. Both of these clowns end up hurting innocent buyers.

I think you misunderstood me. I am not surprised people are still removing blocking bars because there is financial incentive to do so.

 

[Roaster72]

I think you misunderstood me. I am not surprised people are still removing blocking bars because there is financial incentive to do so.

I did misunderstand you, please have my apologies.

 

[Slowmo]

I did misunderstand you, please have my apologies.

No worries, “it” was ambiguous on my part.