9mm AR-15 Reliable??

[medphys]

Wildhorse mfg told me that mike 928 on the guild has been working on a design like this.
I think he calls it a AR31?
I'm "not" suggesting you go all out like this though. It looks like a bunch of work and I've never talked to Mike about the design myself.
As far as I know, it's just a experimental weapon. I don't even know if it's finished yet?

That looks like a Suomi upper mated to the lower. Very interesting.

 

[RM308]

That looks like a Suomi upper mated to the lower. Very interesting.

And it would be a huge seller. I hope someone takes the hint and builds them.

RM308

 

[medphys]

I wonder if that heavy bolt would make it a quieter suppressor host and soften the cycling?

 

[HART1]

Looks like mike 928 is making a tommy 15 also.
You can see his lower mag well all welded up in this link. http://www.weaponsguild.com/forum/index.php?topic=33825.10

 

[medphys]

Looks like mike 928 is making a tommy 15 also.
You can see his lower mag well all welded up in this link. http://www.weaponsguild.com/forum/index.php?topic=33825.10

Thanks buddy!

Mike is joining over here so he can chime in on this a bit and clear some things up. I joined WG too so I have some serious reading to do over the holiday.

 

[mike928]

Hi guys!

Hart1 sent me a message about this and even though I do not belong in other forums, pretty much live on Weaponsguild, I decided to join here so I can clear a few things and answer any questions you guys may have on my builds.

The "AR31" Kenny posted is an old build and was my first attempt. Is not a Suomi, is a blowback AR using the Oly set up (the stupid paper clip ejector is the reason I moved away from it and explored other ideas).

Basically what you see in the picture is an 80% lower cut in "half" and a DPMS upper with the front half of it "turned" (not on a lathe, I had to retain the gas key channel and rail) to 1.375" diameter so I could slip on a BRP magwell.

Like I said the internals are AR with the only major change being the magwell.


I am currently working on a "theme build" that is locked breech DI and IMO "looks" a lot better.

If I can figure out how to post pictures over here I will try to give you an idea.

In the mean time feel free to join WG and check this one out, I am currently working on a stock so I can finish it up!

http://www.weaponsguild.com/forum/index.php?topic=45082.0

 

[mike928]

hope this works

 

[mike928]

rust blued

 

[HART1]

Mike,
I'm interested in the pics on post #16 http://www.weaponsguild.com/forum/index.php?topic=33825.10
I tried to copy the pics, but couldn't. The magwell is more on par with the real Tommy 15.
This is what I'm interested in. http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=353509
I've been down the D.I. road with a AR45. (I'd pass on that) It worked so so on semi, but fell on it's face in full auto.

 

[mike928]

Kenny

I will post those pictures later on when I have more time so people know what we are talking about...read my last post on that thread though it explains a lot...

Basically that magwell is not for a Suomi drum, is for a PPSH. I crashed and burned on that one after doing all that work and actually ending up with a very clean conversion, when I found out what I was told was bullshit!

Everyone I asked told me that the PPSH drum would feed 9mm...no it will not!
The stick mags do but the drum doesn't. If someone wants a TOK or something else that feeds from the PPSH then yes that magwell is kick ass...


As for your other link (the Tommy15 as they call it)

IMO (notice I did not say humble! lol?) it looks like crap and it weakens the upper way too much.

My main issue with it is not just looks though, the Suomi drum is designed to feed the round straight out in line with the bore (that is what makes mine feed perfect btw) Why would anyone want to put that drum in such an angle is beyond me...
I seriously doubt it worked well or at all!

 

[HART1]

Mike,
The drum feed angle was to ramp the round for the distance to the barrel face.
If you mounted the drum straight, the round would nose dive by the time it made it to the chamber on a AR. (I've been down this road before.)
I wouldn't worry about weakening the upper either. You should have seen the material I removed from an AR upper for a 7.62x39 conversion that took AK47 mags.
I bet I took of way more material than the two small cuts on the tommy 15 upper needed for clearance.

 

[mike928]

IMO you want your mag as close to the chamber as possible, mine is all the way forward.

The drum in an angle may work with the blowback bolts but itwill not with a locked breech setup.

The round is pointing up ( if you have the drum in an angle) and you are trying to push the round parallel to the bore...it does not make sense to me...

Look at the Suomi, look at other guns that use the Suomi drum...the BRP stg series guns all have the drum perfectly straight, MAC drum uppers have it straight, as a matter of fact can you think of any gun that has a Suomi drum in an angle other than that AR contraption?

 

[HART1]

I know what your thinking, but your not including the physics involved.
Even I had to change the feed angle on the roller locking 45 acp gun I made that took Glock/Kriss mags.
Look at Glock 21 mag angle change in this video. (It's not at the angle Glock uses.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1ZfrrnOdY0

 

[medphys]

The Lage MAX-31 upper uses an angled drum as well. I think it's probably situation dependent. I agree that a DI 9mm upper would probably benefit from a straight round, but an open bolt like the M11 might favor the rounds tilting upwards a bit since the barrel is higher up in the receiver.

 

[mike928]

Todd
You told me you wanted a DI, there is only one position that bolt will strip a round from the mag and chamber it...play with the components a bit and it will become obvious,

 

[medphys]

Todd
You told me you wanted a DI, there is only one position that bolt will strip a round from the mag and chamber it...play with the components a bit and it will become obvious,

Agreed

 

[mike928]

I am a bit biased btw because I don't even think about it in blowback terms anymore, the Colt system needs an ejector in the lower that complicates things and the Oly has that funky ejector set up.

The Oly bolt is ideal for this conversion but then you are stuck with using their ejector.

Anyways, I have about 4 years into this drum idea so I did explore most possible scenarios, if someone needs to know something specific just let me know,

 

[HART1]

The Lage MAX-31 upper uses an angled drum as well. I think it's probably situation dependent. I agree that a DI 9mm upper would probably benefit from a straight round, but an open bolt like the M11 might favor the rounds tilting upwards a bit since the barrel is higher up in the receiver.

"situation dependent" is damn close.
It depends not so much if it's closed or open bolt. The real issue is travel distance of the bullet between the mag and the barrel and the angle needed to achieve proper feeding without a feed ramp. (In this situation anyway)
I don't like the D.I idea, I was disappointed with my D.I.45
I am troubled about what Mike said about the blow back extractor though. I've never handled one myself to see what it looks like?
If I wasn't up to my neck in my own project and had the extra pocket change to burn, I'd take a hard look at one of these.

Right now I have all my time and money wrapped up in my own 9mm gun that I'm trying to bring to market with the help of kingarmory.
It's even kid approved! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrHihc0-0m8



Best of luck on whatever design you choose and
Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!


.

 

[mike928]

Happy New Year Kenny and to everyone else here.

My DI barrel was made by Moleman ( I think you know him and the quality of his builds ) he has one running Sten mags and it runs perfect.

To be fair the Oly ejector works well, it just doesn't look right lol

I know Rudy (MadMachinist ) had the TOK running flawlessly and so does his 45 uppers now.

I am posting from a phone otherwise I would show you a picture of how clean looking the conversion can be using a PPSH drum...
I think those drums will feed 40 s&w too but never tried it myself.

I have an AR lower with a solid mag well I have been saving for something like this, I just need a mill lol!

 

[medphys]

Happy New Year to all of you as well!

Thanks for reviving this thread and hopefully some more cool builds. Once my ZK-22 is done, I'll start collecting parts and get moving on something