Should I give up on my Lage .22 upper?

ianian

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I recently scored a used Lage M-11/22 upper and unfortunately, I've have had terrible luck with it. I've tried a few different types of ammo, two magazines, running it in two different uppers, and replacing the extractor and spring with Volquartsen Exact Edge. It's always been cleaned and lubed. The extractor lines up with relief cut and the bolt cycles smoothly by hand.

The most I've gotten off is 5 rounds before an issue but usually, I'll only get one round off before an issue and sometimes, none. It's been double feeds and failures to extract from what I can tell. I desperately want this thing to work but I'm running out of options and patience.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks in advance.
 

Gaujo

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Well Lage used to offer to tune them if you sent them in. Did you call Lage and ask? That would be my first stop!
 

Galil#1

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X2 - Indeed you could not beat to have Lage tune it for you. Real no brainer IMHO.
 

skoda

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Try a suppressor or muzzle booster. Mine doesn't run so well without one of those but with one it runs great.
 

RevolverJockey

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Agreed. I have a Fleming kit that doesn’t run unsuppressed with mini mags, but runs flawlessly with a Form 1 can on a tri lug mount with Federal Automach. I don’t think it takes much back pressure to make a big difference.
 

m11stuff@hotmail.com

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Double feeds are from incorrect loading of the magazine. You are getting “rim over” jams. Read the manual, it’s covered in there. Use our magazine loader to load the mag’s. Put the original extractor, spring and plunger back in. The Volquartsen Exact Edge has less space between the bolt face and back of extractor. It needs more space, not less. Any Federal .22 is going to be weak to marginal in power. Use Remington Golden Bullet or something “zippy”. Use Rem Oil for lube. Clean the magazines with the provided brush. Do not lube them.

The .22 kits have been out of production for many years now. Sorry, but we do not provide “tune up” services anymore.

The majority of problems the .22 kits have is caused by incorrect loading of the magazines and incorrect ammo used.
 

strobro32

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I've shot about 80K rounds through 6-7 uppers. The mag loading makes the biggest difference in reliability.
Other issues to consider are cleaning the upper and mags, variations in the ID of the upper recievers, barrel alignment, weld blobs in the uppers and magazine wear. The magazine spring tend to weaken over time. Once you get them tunned they run great until the mag springs weaken or RGB ammo blows the extractors. :)
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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There’s this guy on the Facebook gun groups that works with all sorts of light machine guns and military ordnance that swears he knows the secret to making these run 100% (refuses to tell anyone what that secret is, says he would be giving money away by doing so) he says that they are totally out of spec in one spot or something like that. He’s really smug about it.. I used to take it with a grain of salt because he tried to fight me once when I disagreed with him that a stack of dimes behind the trigger will make an SAP go full auto (it won’t)… but I gotta admit I keep hearing more and more folks complain about these .22 kits. My take is that there are very few M11/9 parts that are a perfect plug and play drop in, especially 22 kits… the guns themselves aren’t exactly “precise” and what works in one gun often times doesn’t work in another and requires a little bit of “fitting”. It doesn’t mean the LAGE 22 is “totally out of spec”, it may work perfectly in some upper/lower combos and not so well in others. Hell there are factory bolts that work well in some upper/lower combos and not in others.. I have a feeling it’s most likely a simple fix with a little time in the garage just like many other M11/9 parts.
 

smec_289

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I wouldn't "give up" but I would "manage expectations". I was in the exact same situation as you with a jam after nearly every round and the occasional (once every mag or two) "burst" of two to four rounds. There were some mags that i fired off complete as single shots. If you look around on this Forum you'll see a a great demonstration of the support provided to the community. When i was researching this problem for my own kit the most common issue i saw was rim lock. This will certainly keep it from running correctly if it is in fact your issue. For me it was not and I actually tired a little of that well-intentioned suggestion because it showed up so much. Still, it is a good place to start. Most people are able to get these running fine and they are great little kits. Maybe not as reliable as 9mm but still a great kit. You must remember that .22 has its inherent limitations in that it is dirty, has a rim, and lacks in power to shove a bolt back. Also keep in mind that the mags for these are not Lage manufactured and in my opinion the weak part of the system. I am also of the opinion that some of these kits "just won't work". Most will disagree with me, a few will. My guess is that anyone selling one of these would probably also agree with me and I would be cautious about buying used for that reason (which now is pretty much anyone's only option). For me i was able to improve the situation greatly by using CCI mini mags (golden bullets didn't work), lubing the upper well, keeping the mag dry (or lubing with a dry lube), shooting only in warm weather, running a suppressor, and most importantly "blocking" the spring cavity with a dowel so that the mag was limited to about half capacity but had greatly increased spring pressure. With all of this done i could reduce jams to about 1 in 20 rounds. I put it on the shelf afterwards. I won't sell it because i still like the idea of it and I'm still half hopeful of a breakthrough. It works but it doesn't work well. NOTE: I never sent mine back to Lage for turning and I probably should have but Sam at practical solutions had it and said it ran great (if i remember correctly he DID have Lage confirm proper function). Because of this I saw no reason to send it I have no reason to question his judgement so maybe my lower just doesn't like it. If so, you could have the same situation.
 

skoda

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Also try taking the semi-auto disconnector out, it's just additional drag that the system doesn't need. And jab the trigger, don't try to modulate it. It's a machinegun, just do mag dumps and laugh.
 

localizer11

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Did you file the V shaped notch on the back of the .22 mag? This allows the mag to lock up tight against the bottom of the ejector plate. There should be zero play up and down when the mag is inserted.
 

woodenword

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I have been fortunate to have a Lage .22 kit that runs extremely well. It’s one of the favorites when we have a family shoot. Everyone knows to take care loading the magazines and I have found that while Remington Golden Bullet is the standard, Winchester M-22 runs as well or maybe even a little better.
 

unclebear

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Using the factory mag loader made a world of difference for me.
Also have noted If you dont pull the trigger hard the increased drag causes failures.
I also keep the mags to 30 rounds , any more and feeding becomes problematic .
Everyone giggles like a kid after they shoot it .
 

unclebear

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I would also suggest using cci mini mags during your trouble shooting . Once you have it running reliably on those you might be surprised how much ammo choice effects reliability .
 

Loco

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There’s this guy on the Facebook gun groups that works with all sorts of light machine guns and military ordnance that swears he knows the secret to making these run 100% (refuses to tell anyone what that secret is, says he would be giving money away by doing so) he says that they are totally out of spec in one spot or something like that. He’s really smug about it.. I used to take it with a grain of salt because he tried to fight me once when I disagreed with him that a stack of dimes behind the trigger will make an SAP go full auto (it won’t)… but I gotta admit I keep hearing more and more folks complain about these .22 kits. My take is that there are very few M11/9 parts that are a perfect plug and play drop in, especially 22 kits… the guns themselves aren’t exactly “precise” and what works in one gun often times doesn’t work in another and requires a little bit of “fitting”. It doesn’t mean the LAGE 22 is “totally out of spec”, it may work perfectly in some upper/lower combos and not so well in others. Hell there are factory bolts that work well in some upper/lower combos and not in others.. I have a feeling it’s most likely a simple fix with a little time in the garage just like many other M11/9 parts.
A stack of dimes behind the trigger would be illegal.

Accidentally placing the tip of your off-hand pointer finger behind the trigger is not illegal, but the gun will shoot multiple rds per pull in this manner. Half of a pink rubber eraser is actually the one I saw in a late 1980s show about "The Deadly Ingram Loophole." I have searched for the show online with zero luck. I wanna say it was Inside Edition or some such shock news, but no manner of google-fu seems to find it.

An extra buffer or two, light reloads, etc., have all been used to create the same effect.

I won't argue it. It's not really a big deal to me. If I wanna run FA, I run a gun with a tax stamp.

Last yr at Dixie Gun Show, there was a 9mm SAP open bolt, and upon inspection, it had a notched bolt, with a hex screw in place to trip the semi auto sear. I imagine a few twists of the screw would have made it FA, but I set that bitch down TOOT SUITE, and even wiped my prints off. Lol
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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A stack of dimes behind the trigger would be illegal.

Accidentally placing the tip of your off-hand pointer finger behind the trigger is not illegal, but the gun will shoot multiple rds per pull in this manner. Half of a pink rubber eraser is actually the one I saw in a late 1980s show about "The Deadly Ingram Loophole." I have searched for the show online with zero luck. I wanna say it was Inside Edition or some such shock news, but no manner of google-fu seems to find it.

An extra buffer or two, light reloads, etc., have all been used to create the same effect.

I won't argue it. It's not really a big deal to me. If I wanna run FA, I run a gun with a tax stamp.

Last yr at Dixie Gun Show, there was a 9mm SAP open bolt, and upon inspection, it had a notched bolt, with a hex screw in place to trip the semi auto sear. I imagine a few twists of the screw would have made it FA, but I set that bitch down TOOT SUITE, and even wiped my prints off. Lol
Still can’t figure out how this would somehow stop the bolt from hitting the trip and initiating the Disconnect, seems like it’s just another old fudd urban legend.. and yes I’ve tried it and No, it doesn’t do anything at all and you cannot even get a stack of dimes to hold in place behind the trigger.. I had to try using other objects… The gap between the trigger and the magwell on these guns is like 7/8 of an inch… you would need to use a dozen dimes. (I also don’t think it’s “illegal” to stuff dimes behind your trigger, especially when it doesn’t do a damn thing at all, aren’t you the same guy who told that story about your fudd FFL sawing machine guns in half also?)

Totally different situation than under powdered ammo not sending the bolt back far enough for the bolt’s sear notch to catch the sear.. not sure how a stack of dimes behind the trigger would cause the bolt not to travel as far back when the round goes off either, or affect the bolt travel at all for that matter... the trigger either drops the bolt or it doesn’t, there’s no in between, once the trigger engages the sear, the bolt slams forward and it either hits the trip or it doesn’t, the only way to get these guns to go full auto is to either prevent that sear from catching the bolt (under powered ammo) prevent the bolt from hitting the trip (grinding bottom front left off the bolt off by about a 1/4 inch or grinding/removing the trip) or prevent the trip from engaging the disconnect (every single other method).

I have the old “FULL AUTO” conversion manual, it touches on basically every possible way to create a situation where the trip no longer functions to engage the disconnect, like 6 or 7 different techniques, including underpowered ammo, grinding down the bottom front left side of the bolt so it no longer engages the trip (best way, doesn’t require any modification to the receiver, and can be quickly swapped out for a normal bolt) snapping the disconnector stem off so it no longer interacts with the trip, cutting the trip so it no longer interacts with the disconnect, removing the FCG entirely and drilling the frame out for a selector switch (pain in the ass but the most “legitimate” conversion method), and even a patented auto sear that attached to the trigger to lock the disconnector in place, preventing it from functioning and dropping off the sear… no mention of the bullshit dimes/eraser nonsense. I am yet to have someone explain exactly what the dimes (or eraser) supposedly does to somehow prevent the bolt from causing the trip to engage the disconnect.

What are you even talking about a “notched bolt with a hex screw in place to trip the semi auto sear”??? 🙄 do you understand how the FCG of an open bolt MAC functions??? they do not have any kind of “semi auto sear”… it is the easiest gun on earth to covert to full auto and doesn’t involve anything pertaining to “notched bolts with hex screws” or non existent “semi auto Sears”… it’s literally a matter of 25 seconds with a file…. tell me you know nothing about how an open bolt semi auto MAC functions without telling me you know nothing about how an open bolt semi auto MAC functions…


Ok back to LAGE 22 kits not working…
 
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Loco

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Without going in to greater detail, I'll have to agree to disagree. The dime setup is obviously not practical.

As for .22 kits not working, my Fleming spits like wildfire with a proper Butler Creek mag, and a small shim supporting the magazine/aligning the feed lips to clear the bolt.

Ramline mags, at least the shyte one I have, only get appx 5 rds off before the rounds misalign/rimlock. Some ammo works okay, but none runs more than 15 our of 25 rds reliably from the Ramlines.


The Lage kit ran like a sewing machine with the loader, and the hotter Remington ammo. It hates Win Super X, CCI, etc. Unfortunately, I sold my Lage. 2000 bucks did buy me a LOT of 9mm tough...
 
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Offmarksman

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They are finicky, but with tuning, they work pretty good. The .22 ammo is really dirty, and even the best .22 ammo isn’t as reliable as center fire ammo. They need to be cleaned regularly during a shooting session if you are going to shoot more than a few mags. I just didn’t like having to mess with it all the time, unlike when I shoot 9mm. I can shoot all I want (with little to no stoppages). I had an ac556 with a .22 kit that ran as close to perfect as
I’ve ever seen. But I had to clean about every 8 mags, and lube. Even that seemed like too much work for me to thoroughly enjoy it.
 

RevolverJockey

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Without going in to greater detail, I'll have to agree to disagree. The dime setup is obviously not practical.

As for .22 kits not working, my Fleming spits like wildfire with a proper Butler Creek mag, and a small shim supporting the magazine/aligning the feed lips to clear the bolt.

Ramline mags, at least the shyte one I have, only get appx 5 rds off before the rounds misalign/rimlock. Some ammo works okay, but none runs more than 15 our of 25 rds reliably from the Ramlines.


The Lage kit ran like a sewing machine with the loader, and the hotter Remington ammo. It hates Win Super X, CCI, etc. Unfortunately, I sold my Lage. 2000 bucks did buy me a LOT of 9mm tough...

Agreed. Mine runs like a top too after I designed a new extractor. I go probably 8-10 mags between malfunctions and those are related to there being way to many spaces to bounce a spent shell with those kits.

I always find it funny when people say to run mini mags, I reload 9mm cheaper than mini mags. If I wanted to pay that much I would just shoot 9mm.

Every gun I own will eat 1,000 rounds of federal champion or auto match between cleanings and re reliable or I don’t own it. I think I have 7 .22s and with the exception of the MG kit, they all run unsuppressed just as well without any modifications.

I get it not everyone works for an engineering firm and reverse engineer/correct things, but with these Lage kits, it has to be a simple fix unless the mags are junk. I would start putting black sharpie on everything and figure out what is rubbing. My bet is it is some sort of tolerance stack up, slowing down the bolt. My Fleming kit runs BX25s, but I had to carefully add clearance for the bolt. It took about 15 per mag, but when they stopped rubbing, they started running and I never had to revisit it.

I should add my kit has to be pretty clean and pretty wet. I take a can of brake cleaner and a little travel manual pump spray bottle of CLP with me to the range to keep is running like a sewing machine.

Lee
 

SecondAmend

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I've no experience with a Lage .22 conversion, but I will note that CCI AR Tactical .22 ammo projectile has a bit different profile than does the CCI MiniMag ammo. The AR Tactical projectile seems to feed better than MiniMag in some applications.
Good luck.
MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.

ETA: And CMMG used to (and might still) use Federal 36 gr. .22 ammo to test fire their .22 assemblies.
 
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